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Oct-20-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project:

<Tab> You are correct.

On Mexico City (1932)

This game here: J Medina Zavalia vs A Medina Garcia, 1932

should be

Francisco Javier Vazquez (white pieces) v Joaquin Medina Zavalia (black pieces),

and Antonio Angel Medina Garcia should be deleted from the leaderboard.

The <Vazquez-Joaquin Medina (Zavalia)> 1-0 result is confirmed by Di Felice's crosstable.

Oct-20-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project:

On Bled-Zagreb-Belgrade Candidates (1959),

the crosstable should be correct now.

Oct-20-14  gauer: Tournament Index search: "World open" - or replace the query with junior, senior (some show up with numeral or Roman numeral followed by name, or for the case of wycc tournaments, sometimes have the names of each swiss section in plural/singular (championship(s)) format - but also sometimes have them grouped as one big swiss tournament file - without knowing who was in which age section), continental (Asian ones; American ones, etc), wijk (the Wijk aan Zee tournaments) etc to see the slight variants which show up.
Oct-20-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  Stonehenge: Almost all games that have <corr ARG> in the event field have nothing to do with Argentina. Just something like <Corr> will do. Or <Correspondence game> or whatever.
Oct-20-14  Alien Math: <gauer> Here thoughts you only ever held notes for the Rogoff Page! very much a surprise to note you escaped there! an omg moment! history are happening
Oct-20-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project:

<colleagues>

Whoever re-wrote what I just did this evening on the Otto Zander, please don't do that again.

It took me some time to dig up that information, evaluate it and paraphrase it with proper sourcing.

The "rewrite" features a copy and pasted Google translation that makes no sense of any kind:

<The inaugural meeting of the GSB took place in Bad Pyrmont, Germany on 9 July 1933. On that occasion, Zander gave a speech in which he announced the expulsion of all Jewish players from organized play operation: "Jews we can to our work do not need, they have to disappear from the clubs, because they were in Germany, the inventor and promoter of the class struggle and now rushing the other peoples with their lying propaganda against our country."(1)>

You can't just copy and paste a passage that long verbatim, especially straight from the Google translator eh? You need to understand German- or English, for that matter- well enough to adjust a passage like that for diction and idiom. If you don't understand English well enough to do that, don't do bio work.

<gauer> was that you who rewrote this?

I get that you wanted to add a direct quote, but why did that necessitate deleting the bulk of what I had researched and written?

Oct-20-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  Karpova: Regarding Otto Zander:

The biography includes a translation of a part of Zander's speech <"Jews we can to our work do not need, they have to disappear from the clubs, because they were in Germany, the inventor and promoter of the class struggle and now rushing the other peoples with their lying propaganda against our country.">* and I wonder if it may be improved slightly - here is a first suggestion:

"We don't need jews for our work, they have to disappear from our clubs, because they were the inventors and promoters of class struggle in Germany, and now they stir up hatred among the peoples against our fatherland with their mendacious propaganda."

Or something like that. The first part of the sentence (1. Juden können wir zu unserer Arbeit nicht brauchen, 2. Jews we can to our work do not need, 3. We don't need jews for our work) is a bit strange, since he uses <zu> ("to" in the earlier translation), rather indicating that he doesn't want to work with jews (in contrast to jews working for them). In the sense that they want to do their work without the participation of jews. Perhaps "at our work" is better.

I chose "stir up hatred" for <hetzen> (in this case "to agitate", translated earlier as "to rush s. o.")), but maybe "agitate against" is better. This is just a suggestion, perhaps the old translation is considered to be fine.

*originally: <Juden können wir zu unserer Arbeit nicht brauchen, sie haben aus den Vereinen zu verschwinden, denn sie waren in Deutschland die Erfinder und Förderer des Klassenkampfes und hetzen jetzt die anderen Völker mit ihrer Lügenpropaganda gegen unser Vaterland.>

Oct-20-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project:

<Karpova>

Oh my Lord...

Massive error on my part, it seems.

If that's how you found the Otto Zander bio when you cleaned it, I have made a terrible mistake-

I also actually added the player page link to <Post> in the course of a lengthier piece of work that I now see is not there.

There's only one explanation- when I had finished my final edit, I did not click the "EDIT BUTTON" to effect the changes.

<gauer> Many, many apologies for bringing your name up- this has only to do with my own sloppiness.

Sorry also to you <Karpova>, and everyone.

Oct-20-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  Karpova: <Jess>

There was no link to Post's player page, so I added it. There was also no source, just [1] at the end. So I added the two sources (Goebbels is not mentioned in the article you quoted, and I didn't want to delete any content).

So you google translated the article and posted it? Because your translated version of Zander's quote is the one currently in the bio.

I do not know how it got there. But we can try to improve the translation, if you think it's worth keeping.

Oct-20-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project:

<Karpova>

The google translation was indeed a new addition- BY ME.

Oh my Lord...

This is what I did. I pasted research materials from the Google translator, a fair bit of text, into the edit box. I did some research in <Di Felice> and then I put all of it together into a sourced paraphrase.

I was using the Edit Box as a "clip board" and obviously what I did was "finish the edit" AND THEN NOT CLICK THE SAVE EDIT BUTTON. So what you saw in the bio was just at the start of me doing that process. It must have been right after I started entering text in the edit box. The one "save" I made had to have been what you came upon. All the rest of my work I clearly didn't save.

Oh my goodness.

<gauer> I am so sorry again for mentioning you like that. In fact, in that post, I was literally CHEWING MYSELF OUT.

I was yelling at myself for something I myself did in the first place.

So sorry...

Oct-20-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project:

<Karpova> That translation may be worth keeping, if you think it is.

You should be the one to translate it though, not Google.

I didn't have any unedited google material in the final version I wrote-the final version nobody ever saw except me. Because I didn't click the "save changes" button at the end.

I tell you what. I would prefer to re-write what I already wrote and lost.

I could do that tomorrow when I'm not feeling so mental. Then you and any other interested <colleagues> could look and see if there's anything you think might be good to add or change?

The bio was a one sentence stub when I got there this evening.. AND MADE IT WORSE.

Oct-20-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  Karpova: <Jess>

So what do you think about my first tentative new translation: Biographer Bistro

Oct-20-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project:

<Karpova>

This looks excellent to me, for both sense and idiom:

<"We don't need jews for our work, they have to disappear from our clubs, because they were the inventors and promoters of class struggle in Germany, and now they stir up hatred among the peoples against our fatherland with their mendacious propaganda.">

Your detailed explanation of the translation points is thorough, and convincing, though I can only offer an English language perspective on that. Possibly <whiteshark> could offer more useful feedback.

<Jews> and <Fatherland> need a capital letter.

Other than that, it looks good to me. I vote keeping it in the bio.

Oct-20-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  Karpova: <Jess>

So this is the current version then:

<We don't need Jews for our work, they have to disappear from our clubs, because they were the inventors and promoters of class struggle in Germany, and now they stir up hatred among the peoples against our Fatherland with their mendacious propaganda.>

I suggest to also include the German original in a footnote:

<Juden können wir zu unserer Arbeit nicht brauchen, sie haben aus den Vereinen zu verschwinden, denn sie waren in Deutschland die Erfinder und Förderer des Klassenkampfes und hetzen jetzt die anderen Völker mit ihrer Lügenpropaganda gegen unser Vaterland.>

Oct-20-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project:

<Karpova>

Good thinking.

Then if <the shark> or another German native speaker cruises by, he may well take his own pass at the text.

Oct-20-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  john barleycorn: <Karpova> I'd suggest:

<We don't need Jews for our work, they have to disappear from our clubs, because in Germany they were the inventors and promoters of class warfare, and now they incite the other peoples against our Fatherland with their mendacious propaganda.>

Oct-20-14  ljfyffe: <Karpova>The translation is wanting for sure, but its placement on the Zander page surely needs to be accompanied by by a clearer reference to Nazi hate propaganda for those who know not history.
Oct-20-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  Karpova: I will leave the Otto Zander biography to <Jess>. she can then decide, how much additional information is necessary.

<john barleycorn>

Thanks for your input!

You place <Germany> at the beginning of the subordinate clause, I placed it at the end. Your version is closer to the original, but the question is now which one is easier to read in English and if the different placement has an influence on the meaning of the sentence.

It seems that there are three expressions in English for <Klassenkampf>: Class conflict, class struggle and class warfare. I don't know which one is to be preferred.

"to incite against" is, like "to agitate against", a littler closer to the German original than my "to stir hatred against". I don't know which one sounds best in English and is common or uncommon, so I leave it to English native speakers to decide.

Oct-20-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  zanzibar: <Karpova> minor edit...

<"We don't need Jews to do our work. They have to disappear from our clubs because they are the inventors and promoters of class struggle in Germany, and now spread deceitful propaganda against our country throughout the world.">

A small sidenote about mendacious - it's a perfect word, but it shows a level of education far beyond what such villainous utterances deserve.

Here's the google translation of <Karpova>'s original:

<<>Jews we can to our work do not need, they have to disappear from the clubs, because they were in Germany, the inventor and promoter of the class struggle and now rushing the other peoples with their lying propaganda against our country.><><>>

Oct-20-14  ljfyffe: <MissScarlett/Ziggurat> Cyril Vansittart 1851- 1887 36 yeats old at death--if not on lists?
Oct-20-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  Karpova: <Zanzibar>

How do we judge what such utterances deserve? I think that the purpose of our translations should be that the reader understands what someone was saying in a foreign language, not to convey our emotions about what was said.

You use <spread>, which is much too weak in my opinion. An explanation may be in order: The German original is <hetzen>. This has at least a double meaning and the earlier is probably the "physical" one. E. g. when someone makes attack dogs hunt a man or an animal down, you could describe that by <hetzen> (there is even the term <Hetzjagd>, Jagd = Hunt). In Zander's case, it's meant in a verbal way. The picture Zander uses is that of an attack dog owner making his attack dogs (the peoples) hunt down their victim (Fatherland). The propaganda is here the means by which he makes the other peoples attack their victim. So I think that we should not deviate even more from the original <hetzen> - the question is, whether <to agitate against>/<to incite against> are good English or maybe <to stir up hatred> is to be preferred.

The second point, <Lügenpropaganda> - I'm not sure if there is a good English translation. I think we should use the best one (closest to the German expression in meaning, most common) - whether this is mendacious propaganda, deceitful propaganda or something else. The term <Propaganda> had been quite common and neutral earlier (the Latin roots are clear). However, during WWI and finally WWII, the term was completely discredited in German, so today <Lügenpropaganda> and <Propaganda> are almost synonymous. Yet, Zander still had to put before <Lügen> (lies, lying) back then. The expression <Lügenpropaganda> itself is rather common, and this maybe important for finding an English equivalent. Is <to deceive> really the same as <to lie>? I think that "mendacious propaganda" is the more exact translation. If you lie, you are consciously telling something not true - but you could deceive someone without telling the untruth, could you? Zander claims that they lie by using that expression.

Oct-20-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  zanzibar: <Karpova> Some fair points - allow me to try and address a couple:

<How do we judge what such utterances deserve?>

They deserve accurate translation and context setting. I think we all agree on that. But...

They are vile, anti-Semitic statements, directed not at individuals, but an entire class of people. My bias is clear on that issue.

Now, I was addressing the use of <mendacious> when I wrote my original post. It's a word not in common usage, and some (many?) readers will not know it. I felt you may have been projecting your own writing ability and education into the translation, if the truth be known.

I assumed that the original prose was in a low-level of prose, or formality. Not being a German speaker I may be mistaken on that. But the google translation was "lying propaganda", and lying belongs to the vernacular.

Accordingly I wanted to project the level of vocabulary in that direction. Maybe my bias against the statement entered into the decision, but given the choice within the limits of accuracy, I still think it the better.

Not being a German speaker I was unable to have understood all the implications of the language before you explored them in your subsequent post.

Let me say, quite clearly, that such an inflammatory statement as should be included in the original no matter what translation is used, for purposes of accuracy.

<JB>'s use of <class warfare> is more graphic and dynamic, and perhaps therefore better, than <class struggle>.

So, the "inciting of other people" is implicit in the very mention of "propaganda". There choices in doing a translation - to make it flow well in English may mean it's not completely literal. So compare...

<und hetzen jetzt die anderen Völker mit ihrer Lügenpropaganda gegen unser Vaterland.>

<"and are now inciting foreigners against our Fatherland with their mendacious (lying) propaganda.">

<"and now spread deceitful propaganda against our country throughout the world.">

The meaning is the same. English speakers generally don't use Fatherland, Germans do. Google translate opts for English style usage.

I omitted the inciting clause since it is understood implicit in the very act of disseminating propaganda.

Either is fine with me, but I dislike the use of mendacious here - for multiple reasons, as stated above.

As for "deceitful" vs. "lying". A lie is always an untrue verbal or written statement. Unless it is abstracted, in which case it can be used as a judgement on some assertion (usually as in <It's a lie!>).

Deceit can include lies, but can also include slights of hand, ie. magic tricks. I person can be deceitful by their very appearance, or gestures, etc.

But deceitful propaganda, and lying propaganda are the same. The emphatic content being slightly less in the former. Few people say "deceitful proganda", fewer still say "lying propaganda".

But many say "lies and propaganda". Perhaps translating <Lügenpropaganda> as <lies and propaganda> would be best.

(The main point here though, is that the original German should be included in Zander's bio. I think it might be interesting to know exactly how he died on that day in June, 1938 [on a mission with the SA])

PS- I actually also think the entire quote found here should be included:

http://www.ballo.de/dsb_3__teil,_b....

<Ehrhardt Post wurde Stellvertreter von Otto Zander (1886-1938), der die Leitung des GSB übernahm. Zander hielt seine bekannte Rede in Bad Pyrmont, in der er die Juden Deutschlands vom organisierten Spielbetrieb ausschloß: „Juden können wir zu unserer Arbeit nicht brauchen, sie haben aus den Vereinen zu verschwinden, denn sie waren in Deutschland die Erfinder und Förderer des Klassenkampfes und hetzen jetzt die anderen Völker mit ihrer Lügenpropaganda gegen unser Vaterland. Ich will gestatten, daß Mitglieder, die unter ihren Großeltern drei Arier und nur einen Juden haben, in den Vereinen bleiben, sofern sie deutsch gesonnen sind. Und nun arbeiten, nichts als arbeiten! Bundesleiter Otto Zander".>

PPS- What's the deal here?

http://ufopaedia.org/index.php?titl...

Hidden meanings?

Oct-20-14  gauer: There seems to be a few "Candidates matches: X-Y (2007)", Z-X, etc, where the X seems to have k-o'ed a series of players (at the same location, within the same months). This doesn't seem too bad at all, either, but does a format such as FIDE Knock-out Women's World Championship (2012) also display a knock-out tree well (or who has any preferences, since the games lists of some of the FIDE W. k-o Championships seem to be getting rebuilt)?!

Also, some nations have their own yearly national opens, which sometimes coincide with their yearly running provincial open as the same tournament. Is it possible (like in the banner-ribbon line of a world championship page to alias previous and next links to both)? - Quebec/Canadian open, etc.

For a totally unrelated idea, is some sort of "notes sharing" (such as http://www.chessgames.com/perl/addn... to favourites or fellow members of a team correspondence http://www.chessgames.com/perl/stic... sticky) possible, or perhaps "collections sharing". Importing or exporting a subset of node comments to a .cbh (chessbase, - or similar - file could be seen as a useful way to keep one's own annotator comments private, maybe, also displaying them at a gid's view page, as well...) or pgn? Just a couple of ideas to float out there today.

Oct-20-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  john barleycorn: <Karpova>, <Zanzibar>On a second thought:

<Juden können wir zu unserer Arbeit nicht brauchen...>

does not translate as

<We don't need Jews to do our work>

I understand that as "we can do the work alone"

I think what is meant is "We don't need Jews around us when we do our work" or "Jews are of no use for our work"

Oct-21-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  Karpova: <Zanzibar: My bias is clear on that issue.>

In my opinion, we should try to remain as unbiased as possible when translating the text. One of the reasons is that else the (for sure exaggerated, but still containing a valid point) objection could be raised, that the statements sounded so vile, because we consciously chose to translate them this way.

Anyway, what I tried so far was to ask for English alternatives which have the meaning I tried to explain.

I reject your suggestions for the following reasons:

1) mendacious vs deceitful: You mention the difference between deceitful and lying yourself. That's why deceitful should not be used. "Mendacious propaganda" was the best I found, perhaps there is something better. Maybe "lying propaganda" is more fitting, but is it common in English? "Lies and Propaganda" does not fit.

The translations you offer for the last part are too far away from the German text and, curiously, you attenuate what he said in your suggestion. I tried to explain, but I obviously failed, sorry for that. <Hetzen> conjures up a strong mental image, which is completely lost if you use "to spread" or believe it was implicit in propaganda. To introduce another example: When you wanted to describe how Hitler or Goebbels etc. spoke about Jews in their speeches, <hetzen> would be a very acceptable term to use (<hetzte gegen Juden>). I hope this makes it a bit more understandable, why I think it should be kept. If <incite against> is good English, we should use it. But "to spread" is far too weak. And <Völker> means peoples, i. e. somehow defined groups of people, not just foreigners.

In general, it may be helpful to read my posts, e. g. I already said that the German original should be included: Biographer Bistro

<john barleycorn>

This is also the way I understood it, see Biographer Bistro and my suggested translation so far was <We don't need Jews for our work>, not <We don't need Jews to do our work>. Actually, your suggestion with <of no use for> had entered my mind first also. However, I don't know if <We don't need Jews for our work> or <Jews are of no use for our work> better captures the meaning. I also thought about substituting "for" with "at" or something. I rejected "of use" for exactly that reason, I thought it would make it sound too much as if the Jews should (not) work "for" them, instead of the rather intended "with" them, i. e. rather like employees than co-workers (like you use an instrument, in a sense). But his statement appears neutral with regards to any work hierarchy, he just doesn't want Jews there categorically, on any hierarchy level.

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