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Kibitzer's Cafe
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 464 OF 464 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Jul-29-15  thomastonk: <zanzibar: At the time of the tournament, Baden-Baden was located in the <Grand Duchy of Baden>, which was an independent nation-state until Prussia's victory brought it into Bismarck's expanding German Empire.> But at least the 'Grand Duchy of Baden' did not give up its sovereignty during the tournament! (The German Empire was founded in 1871.)
Jul-29-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: <Did Simon Rubinstein die in 1942, as claimed by Wikipedia?>

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/f... at least shows that there was a Simon Rubinstein 1911-1942.

Jul-30-15  zanzibar: Some questions about updating intros in a tournament after it gets voted in:

Baden-Baden (1870) (kibitz #22)

Jul-30-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: I requested Euwe vs Saemisch, 1921 be added back to Budapest (1921).

Note that "There are two scores for this game in the database".

Jul-31-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: <Tabanus: I requested Euwe vs Saemisch, 1921 be added back to Budapest (1921).>

This is now fixed.

Jul-31-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: Top of the Janowski - Showalter Match 4 (1916) page reads <Janowski - Showalter Match 4 Match> which is not very elegant. There are a few more cases like this. Hard to avoid I guess, especially if more than one match in one year. Perhaps best if CG deletes the last "Match" in those.
Aug-01-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: 17 games are still missing from 18th DSB Kongress (1912) (despite the good-looking edited standings table). Some (or all?) of these have apparently been submitted. So they may be residing in the database somewhere.
Aug-02-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  offramp: There is a really good comment at Petrosian - Spassky World Championship Match (1966).

<Apr-15-09 alshatranji: "if not to the manor born". Do you mean "not to the manner born"? Or you actually referring to the British sitcom? And what does the phrase actually mean in reference to Spassky?>

The sentence she is referring to is this: "At a strictly personal level, if not to the manor born, Spassky was certainly to the gracious manner born." So I don't know if the prefacerer was making a joke. If it IS a joke - I dinna get it.

Aug-02-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  Noflaps: It would be difficult to be "to the manor born" in Soviet Russia. Was Spassky born into a grand manor owned by the landed gentry? And yet, in any event, he was as gracious as one might hope such gentlemen to be. (I realize that not all might have the same view on that point).

So, if not quite a "joke," it was a play on words meant, apparently, to compliment Spassky.

Aug-02-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: <And to the manner born, ... (i.e., predisposed to the practice. This phrase is sometimes mistakenly rendered as "to the manor born", and used to mean 'of the privileged class”; see references for more on this one. In recent years this misconception has spread through the popularity of the British sitcom To the Manor Born, the title of which was a deliberate pun on Shakespeare's phrase.)>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phras...

This fell into my lap as I'm in the process of boning up on <Hamlet> in preparation for:

http://www.standard.co.uk/goingout/...

Aug-02-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  offramp: <MissScarlett: <And to the manner born, ... (i.e., predisposed to the practice. This phrase is sometimes mistakenly rendered as "to the manor born", and used to mean 'of the privileged class”; see references for more on this one. In recent years this misconception has spread through the popularity of the British sitcom To the Manor Born, the title of which was a deliberate pun on Shakespeare's phrase.)> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phras...

This fell into my lap as I'm in the process of boning up on <Hamlet> in preparation for:... etc...>

Well I mentioned Hamlet on that page. I said,

<offramp:... LOL! Well spotted.

It is still there, 5 years later. I can imagine Spassky chuckling along to the antics of Peter Bowles and Penelope Keith. I found the program slightly less funny than a burning orphanage, but Spassky may have loved it owing to the Peter Bowles character having the real name of <Bedrich Polouvicka> - undoubtedly a Leningrader.

The correct phrase, one that I would never use myself, comes from Shakespeare's <Hamlet> (page 94) and is predictably incomprehensible:

<"Though I am a native here and to the manner born, it is a custom more honoured in the breach than the observance."> Who?

Aug-02-15  zanzibar: <program slightly less funny than a burning orphanage>

Oh lordy.

I think the original comment on Spassky was a compliment on his graciousness and manners, despite his humble beginnings (he was an evacuee from Leningrad).

So, not a joke, but someone having a play with the phrases.

Here's Spassky himself, having some fun with various phrases and phases:

http://www.chessintranslation.com/2...

What's a sprat?!

Aug-02-15  zanzibar: Apparently, sprats are a professional organization:

http://sprat.org/

I didn't know they make a good soup as well.

Aug-02-15  zanzibar: <Tab> Looking at pairs, I could only find one potential missing game from <Breslau (1912)>:

E Cohn vs Z Barasz, 1912

Aug-02-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: <z> You mean 18th DSB Kongress (1912)? There should be 17 x 9 = 153 games, but are only 136. And it's a whole job to find out which are missing.

Ahh.. you mean the remaining 16 are not in the database? Sigh.

Aug-02-15  zanzibar: Yes and yes ... sigh.
Aug-02-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: Hard to believe they have disappeared (?) Apparently it was voted in with missing but available games.
Aug-02-15  zanzibar: <MB> has all the games, but two:

<Mieses // von Balla>

<Rubenstein // Treybal>

And 365chess seems to have the complete tournament:

http://www.365chess.com/tournaments...

Aug-02-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: <I found the program slightly less funny than a burning orphanage.>

That's a bit harsh. A poster called <bishopberkeley>, I believe, once put it nicely in averring that such sitcoms are meant to be fun, rather than funny. Oh, by the way, it's programme, not program.

Aug-02-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: Editor Notes Many such notes aren't helpful, or even intelligible. Every entry should be self-explanatory.
Aug-03-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  chessgames.com: Now you know what we have to deal with.
Aug-03-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  chessgames.com: <twinlark> made a suggestion chessgames.com chessforum (kibitz #23112) the gist of which is

<is instead of "citizen of the United States of America", simply substitute "Federation: United States of America".>

This gets into the distinction between nationality and federation, etc. I think it's a good idea, but we should be careful with terminology and decide what we really want. I'm a little concern with seeing the old masters like Steinitz be assigned a "federation".

As things stand, we have two country fields. Internally they are called "country" and "nationality" (but that's not important, I might have called them x and y).

The first field ("country") is supposed to be assigned for every player. It's almost always the place of their birth. The second field is optional, and only to be used in cases where there was a change. It's that second field that we are currently labeling "citizen".

I do agree that "citizen" is too strong and specific a term for our purposes. It has a precise legal definition and it's beyond the scope of Chessgames to keep track of thousands of people's immigration statuses.

In short, I like twinlark's suggestion of dropping the word "citizen" which—and things stand—is not always correct, and replace it with a more generic term. The most ambiguous term I could come up with is:

<Federation / Nationality: ________>

but I'm open to suggestions.

Aug-03-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  Stonehenge: <Country of origin>

CG, please add Mauritania and Kosovo. I don't agree with FIDE that Kosovo is a country, but my personal opinion is of course not important here.

Aug-03-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  chessgames.com: <Mauritania and Kosovo> You got it.
Aug-03-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  twinlark: <Ceegee>

If more than "federation" is needed, what about "federation/resident of"?

Or maybe "federation" for modern players post-20 July 1924, and "nationality" or "resident of" for players who died pre-20 July 1924, when FIDE was founded.

Could that be linked to the value in the "date deceased" field?

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