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Kibitzer's Cafe
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Aug-29-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: <tt: I've just closed this chapter by deleting the collection.> I did that in the very beginning, but I don't think it's a good idea. Now there is little to fall back on, should there be major changes to the TI tournament. Where are now the round dates, for example?

I've also had games deleted from my collections. At least on two occasions. Such things just makes us feel bad, and lose faith in ourselves.

Aug-29-15  thomastonk: <Tabanus: I did that in the very beginning ... Where are now the round dates, for example?> Okay, I see. Thanks! I thought: why should we have and take care of the same data twice? And additionally: I am limited to 8 collections.
Aug-29-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  Stonehenge: H Strick van Linschoten vs W Schlage, 1920

<ERROR: Please do not use the character ? in site names.>

I wanted to change Berlin into ?, because it was a telegraph match.

Aug-29-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  gauer: Linares - Morelia (2007) (seems to) give a "Linares-Morelia" <event name> (much like London (1883) has (ie London), produced in nominating) and a site field. Not that it would necessarily need to happen, but does the <site> editor for <individual> games of a group of a tid allow for an admin to shorten a site name into a splitting (in this case, of 2 sites, instead of 1) of games whose rounds were played in either Europe or North America? Hopefully the column associated to the <URL> for an Event/Locale tid or pid would still show as the produced hyperlink via a cid->tid nomination process, if the <site> corrector allows for global/individual event names or sites within a tid (it would seem better to use a correction slip if the URL link name would ever need to change too).
Aug-29-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  Fusilli: Would someone like to take a stab at improving Chantal Chaude de Silans bio? The Wikipedia entry on her has plenty of interesting info. She competed in four women world chess championship, not just one as her bio says now. She was the first woman ever to play at a chess olympiad. She scored the best placement of any woman so far at the French chess championship. She was involved with the French resistance during WW2. And she was the manager of Paris' Caissa chess club for over 30 years. And all of this while raising four kids.

In our men dominated sport, I think we owe this extraordinary woman a fairer bio than the one currently up. There's much to admire in her.

Thanks!

Aug-29-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  Fusilli: (ctd.) Also, while that is a good photo of her, a photo from her playing years would be better. We don't have a photo of Fischer in his bearded 50s or 60s up, or a photo of Korchnoi today, but photos from their prime playing years. The Wikipedia photo of Ms. Silans would be appropriate.
Aug-29-15  zanzibar: <Stonehedge>

Biographer Bistro (kibitz #12207)

Telegraph matches and radio matches should generally denoted by a compound site - so I find the current Site tag is acceptable:

<Berlin-Holland m Telegraph>

though my preference would be:

<Berlin/Holland telegraph match>

Aug-29-15  thomastonk: <ERROR: Please do not use the character ? in site names.> I think I got this error message, when I changed only the year of Chess Club vs Paris, 1839, i.e., without touching the site entry '?'. After I deleted the '?' it worked, and there is still a '?' in the PGN.
Aug-29-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: <In our men dominated sport, I think we owe this extraordinary woman a fairer bio than the one currently up. There's much to admire in her.>

Patronising git. You think women sit around lionising men who like shopping?

Aug-29-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  chessgames.com: Somebody updated the Sinquefield Cup (2015) leaderboard because we were an hour late in reporting one of the games.

Please do not do this! Once a leaderboard is edited it does not change for the remainder of the tournament. This feature is for correcting finished events that have incomplete data, not for any other purpose.

Thanks.

Aug-29-15  epistle: It wasn't me!
Aug-29-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  Phony Benoni: Hmm. Looks like I have a few site corrections to make on US Open games!
Aug-30-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  Fusilli: <MS> I wish they did. I love shopping.

Now, will you do justice to Ms. Silans and improve her bio?

Or would anyone else?

Aug-30-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: <PB> Or you promote the US Opens to TI with the Site we want.

I was planning to send slips for all US events in TI. For the 25 "outstanding" ones in my forum header, I will fill in game by game for the matches, and re-submit for the rest. With fingers crossed.

Aug-30-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  chessgames.com: <<ERROR: Please do not use the character ? in site names.> I wanted to change Berlin into ?, because it was a telegraph match.>

Fair point, you can use question marks now.

<<CG> Unless you already have taken a firm stand on the matter, I insist that you adopt this style (links to the 25 "outstanding issues" are still in my forum header):

"Augusta, Georgia USA"
"San Francisco, California USA"
"Chicago, Illinois USA">

I usually tend to like compact information over verbose information. but there are no states with particularly long names (I think Massachusetts is the longest) so that's hardly an issue here.

I see the desire to spell out the state names. Even as an American I sometimes get confused with the postal codes. (AR is not Arizona, it's Arkansas, Arizona is AZ.)

But this is important: it would be fairly trivial to write software that converts "Chicago, Illinois USA" into "Chicago, IL USA" and vice versa. It could automatically scan 750K games and make switches everywhere it sees a 'wrong" format. It could even insert/delete commas where needed.

Therefore, such software would be very handy in normalizing the tags in first place, but moreover, if we ever changed our mind we could run the same software in reverse and switch it back.

Aug-30-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  Phony Benoni: <Tabanus> I hesitate to nominate the US Opens for promotion because I keep finding new games and information. Since I intend to keep the collections up to date. that means two places to update instead of one.

Others have promoted some of them (and how I hate those numbers in the Event Name. But now I'm stuck with using them). I just don't feel ready to do it myself.

Of course, it could just be a control thing.

Aug-30-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  chessgames.com: <<<chessgames> This feature was not intended to be used as a way to change scores of games associated with an event (even though it could be used that way).>

Arggh! Please say it isn't so. Pleeezze?

<Games which belong to a tournament must be kept normalized.>

The software must guarantee this, imo, it's mandatory.>

I was considering the "lockdown" mode, where if you try to change the site tag on an official tournament page you just get an error saying something like <This game is from an official tournament page. Use a correction slip if you think there is a problem here.>

Then I thought, should the entire date/round editor be disabled? That would end the practice of "vote it in and we'll put the dates in later when we figure it out."

Finally I thought of a few farfetched cases where site-editing an official tournament actually could be used for good, e.g. when we run live game the Site tag ends up temporarily clobbered, and there were a few instances of bad headers slipping in due to sloppy duplicate merging, etc.

But none of those cases are really what site-editing is intended to do, so I will implement the "lockdown" soon. (But only for the site-tag; you'll still be able to edit rounds and dates.)

For the time being, the way it works is OK. We put the power in your hands and see what happens. If anybody makes a mess of something there are editor notes to prove it and we can fix it easily. But you are right, we should disallow this practice.

Aug-30-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  chessgames.com: I wrote earlier <But this is important: it would be fairly trivial to write software that converts "Chicago, Illinois USA" into "Chicago, IL USA" and vice versa>

So trivial that I just did it. I call it "deabbreviator" although it can be run in a mode where it becomes a "reabbreviator" should we ever change our minds!

Here's some sample output:

<1735693 : site "Charleston, WV USA" changed to "Charleston, West Virginia USA"

1751604 : site "Boston Chess Club, Boston, MA USA" changed to "Boston Chess Club, Boston, Massachusetts USA"

1751663 : site "Long Beach CA USA" changed to "Long Beach, California USA"

1754989 : site "New York NY, USA" changed to "New York, New York USA">

There are a few postal codes I intentionally skipped, the US "possessions":

AS => 'American Samoa'
GU => 'Guam'
MD => 'Midway Islands'
NI => 'Northern Mariana Islands'
PR => 'Puerto Rico'
VI => 'Virgin Islands'

Also, for the sake of normalization I took two common mistakes and auto-fixed them. If the city says "St. Louis" it will get spelled out as "Saint Louis" as it should. Also, there's no no reason to say "New York City"; it's just "New York". I'll add other little gaffs like that to this list if I happen to notice them. A few dozen games were cleaned up with those rules.

This program has no worries editing PGN from official tournaments, in fact those are the most important ones to edit. There have been inconsistencies in how we've labeled US cities in the past and this will correct that. The first thing it did was go to 1st American Chess Congress (1857) and turn all of the <New York, NY USA> into <New York, New York USA>. Voila, problem solved.

Also note that to err on the side of caution, this program doesn't touch anything that doesn't actually say "USA" or at least "US" at the end of the string. If it says "Miami FL" it will not make any assumptions and just leave it as it stands. Bad sites like that are good targets for the new site-tag editor.

Anyhow, the bottom line is that 4,795 game were changed in this fashion, hopefully saving Tabanus and others tons of labor. I have the details in a logfile in case something might have went wrong, but it looks pretty solid to me.

Aug-30-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: <PB> I see. There are (at least) two things you can do in the collection but not in TI: 1) assign a bulk of games (a round) to a certain date, and 2) add new games. I hope for promotion sooner or later.

<CG> Great! Hmm. Now I'll only have to click through 4795 games to check that everything got standardized.

Aug-30-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: Yikes.

<CG> Can Site be added to the games list? You have Event/Locale there already (what's "Locale" btw). But not Site (and not round and exact date). Perhaps there's not enough space, say for Polugaevsky - Mecking Candidates Quarterfinal (1977).

Aug-30-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: No more outstanding issues in my forum header!

I did a check on L T Magee vs H Fajans, 1951 which has "Fort Worth, TX" for the 52nd US Open (1951) (should be "Fort Worth, Texas USA"). So not all have been taken care of.

Aug-30-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  chessgames.com: <Can Site be added to the games list?>

It's possible but I'd have to get into the reasons why it's not there in the first place, and why we have that "Event/Locale" column in the game lists.

The fact is we have a lot of PGN with bad or missing Event or Site tags. These examples are not uncommon:

[Event "Moscow it"]
[Site "?"]

[Event "?"]
[Site "Nice FRA"]

With that in mind, not wanting to show users giant tables sprinkled with "?" fields, we decided to display it as one field that will show the name of the event, unless the name of the event is "?", in which case it will display the site (aka the "locale").

In addition to that issue, there is also the problem that the game tables are rather wide especially if you are using a mobile device, combined with the fact that some location tags are very lengthy. To make matters a little worse, some users have "display sacrifices" in their settings checked, which adds another column as well.

So the decision is based on a combination of wanting to display clean-looking data and space concerns. Perhaps the good compromise would be to add those columns but you only enable them with your preferences, as they would be turned off by default, just like the "sacrifice" column.

Aug-30-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  chessgames.com: <I did a check on L T Magee vs H Fajans, 1951 which has "Fort Worth, TX" for the 52nd US Open (1951) (should be "Fort Worth, Texas USA"). So not all have been taken care of.>

Like I said: <to err on the side of caution, this program doesn't touch anything that doesn't actually say "USA" or at least "US" at the end of the string.> So cases like this would be a good time to use a correction slip. Just leave the slip on the tournament and say "Event should be _____ across all games." I just fixed the 52nd US Open but if you find others like that, let us know.

Aug-30-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: <CG> I'll make another list of events soon!

I'm a little worried that individual games may still be wrong inbetween the main bulk of corrected "US" or "USA" ones. But then I'm perverted.

<Perhaps the good compromise would be to add those columns but you only enable them with your preferences>

That sounds like good idea. Btw I would not worry about the bad-looking ? etc.. Other sites are not better and it would be a great help for editors. But it would imply more work.

Aug-30-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: <<CG> I'll make another list of events soon!> Done (slips sent), as follows (events before 2000, excl. World Championships):

US Championship (1958/59), US Championship (1957/58), Dallas (1957), Third Rosenwald Trophy (1956), 55th US Open (1954), 52nd US Open (1951), Wertheim Memorial (1951), 50th US Open (1949), 49th US Open (1948), 47th US Open (1946), US Championship (1936), Bradley Beach (1929), 9th American Chess Congress (1923), Rice Memorial (1916), American National (1913), New York Masters (1911), 2nd City Chess Club Tournament (1894), 1st City Chess Club Tournament (1893), 5th American Chess Congress (1880), Philadelphia (1876), 3rd American Chess Congress (1874), 2nd American Chess Congress (1871) (= 22 events).

There are many "New York, New York USA" when perhaps "Manhattan, New York USA" would be more elegant? I think there are two cases of "Brooklyn, New York USA" in TI. But when the same event was played in both Manhattan and Brooklyn, it should probably best be "New York, New York USA"?

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