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May-01-16  Paint My Dragon: <z> If you're struggling, I've got Schallopp-Gunsberg and Bird-Schallopp. I guess I could copy them out, or preferably, send you a jpeg attached to an email. Does Zanchess have a contact email?
May-01-16  zanzibar: <PmD> a scan would be great.

My blog is moderated, so you could leave a comment with your email there.

I'll just grab the email address and delete the comment (if you haven't commented there before it won't ever even be published), and then shot you a reply with my email address. We can go from there.

OK, thanks kindly.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Pawn and Two: <zanzibar> It looks like we are making good progress on <Nottingham (1886)>.

Gillam has the game scores for:

Rd. 1 - Thorold - Taubenhaus 0-1 (52 moves)

Rd 5 - Schallopp - Gunsberg 1-0 (40 moves

Rd 8 - Schallopp - Hanham 1-0 (47 moves)

Rd 8 - Pollock - Thorold 1-0 (35 moves)

Rd 9 - Bird - Schallopp 0-1 (44 moves)

Gillam also has several more game fragments. I will list these in my next posting.

May-01-16  zanzibar: <Pawn and Two>, <PmD> yes, good progress.

I'll publish the outline of the tournament, with a link to the PGN (29+ full games + stubs).

The PGN will be a work-in-progress as we finish it off - but it's already able to generate an accurate xtab, both RR and Swiss.

I'll be back in a bit then...

Premium Chessgames Member
  Pawn and Two: <zanzibar> Additional game fragments provided in Gillam's <Nottingham (1886)> tournament book:

Rd 2 - Burn - Thorold 1-0 - 1.e5 c5

Rd 2 - Hanham - Bird 1/2-1/2 - 1.e4 c5

Rd 3 - Bird - Burn 1/2-1/2 - 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5

Later in the game, White to move:

click for larger view

47.Rxf4, (per Gillam, the next few moves, until White's 55th move, are a reconstruction by Richard Forster in his book on Amos Burn), 47...h3 48.Rf8 Kh4 49.Rh8+ Nh5 50.Rb8 h2 51.Rb1 Ng3 52.Ke3 h1Q 53.Rxh1+ Nxh1 54.e5 Ng3, (per Gillam, we have now reached a position given in Steinitz's International Chess Magazine), 55.Kf4 Ne2+ 56.Ke3 Ng3 57.Kf4 Ne2+ 58.Kf5 Nd4+ 59.Ke4 dxe5 60.d6 Kg3 61.d7 Nc6 62.Kd5 Nd8 63.Kxe5 Kxf3, Gillam states the game was later drawn - 1/2-1/2

Rd 5 - Thorold - Hanham 1-0 - 1.e4 e6

Rd 6 - Hanham - Taubenhaus 0-1 - 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5

Rd 6 - Zukertort - Rynd 1-0 - 1.Nf3

Later in the game, White to play:

click for larger view

1.Rc8 Rbb7 2.Ng4 Rd7 3.Bxh6+ Kh7 4.Bxd5 Bxd4 5.Bb3 f5 6.Bg5 Nf7 7.Nf6+ Kg7 8.Rg8 mate - 1-0

Rd 7 - Rynd - Schallopp 0-1 - 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Bc4 (27 moves).

Rd 7 - Hanham - Zukertort 0-1 - 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 (20 moves) lost on time.

Rd 7 - Pollock - Burn 0-1 - 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 (38 moves)

Rd 7 - Bird - Thorold 1/2-1/2 - 1.e4 c5

Rd 9 - Gunsberg - Zukertort 1/2-1/2 - 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 (27 moves)

May-01-16  zanzibar: <Pawn and Two> + other biographers...

I have a question about this abbreviated opening stubs.

I think it's clear that Gillam is basically using the contemporaneous reportage that gave the openings in descriptive terms...



"Sicilian Defense" -> 1.e4 c5

"French Defense" -> 1.e4 e3 (2.d4 d5)

"Giuoco Piano" -> 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5

"Ruy Lopez" -> 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5

"(Little) Bishop's Gambit" -> 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Bc4

"Vienna Opening" -> 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3


Of course, omitting the second move in the French is a little perplexing... but I think the idea is right.


(1) should the opening moves be included in the stub, a la Gillam?


(2) should the ECO code be used, with perhaps a comment about the opening (using the original opening name in the reportage)?

The latter option would keep the movelist empty, and wouldn't invent moves that weren't provided in the literature.

Any opinions?

(I lean towards (2)).

May-01-16  zanzibar: RE: <Diagramming positions with FEN>

Can I ask a favor for all biographers?

When you paste the FEN into the comment, could you please just paste another copy in, but add a space before the first slash?

That hack allows the text to be displayed, which can be turned into a valid FEN by deleting just that one extra character.

Comme ša:

click for larger view

8 /8/p2p4/P2P3k/3KPpRp/5Pn1/8/8 w - - 0 47

* * * * *

[Long-winded explanation]

When we communicate a position here on <CG>, we just paste the FEN directly into the comment. Which is great for displaying the diagram.

Trouble is, often I'd rather have the FEN text directly instead of the diagram.

Now I know I can display the diagram (via "Open image in a new tab") and read off the FEN from the url, but I have to edit all the underscores into slashes etc.

It would be best if <CG> allowed the FEN to be accessed directly, but it doesn't.

So here's the favor... when you paste the FEN into the comment, could you please just paste another copy in, but add a space before the first slash?

That hack allows the text to be displayed, which can be turned into a valid FEN by deleting just that one extra character.

Sorry to be so long winded about this, but it would be much more convenient (even for those of us good at FEN). And it's pretty easy to do, if you just think of it.

May-01-16  zanzibar: <Pawn and Two> I've finished processing all the fragments you posted. Much appreciated.

It provides several great examples, and challenges, for the design goal I've cited - i.e.

<The PGN should contain as much information about the game as possible.>

<chessgames> took exception to this goal as being, to paraphrase, overly ambitious and unrealistic. Well, to be exact, he questioned the wisdom of recording all the information in the PGN, e.g. like the player's shoe colors.

OK, let's face it, only a true fashion maven, like <MissS> would really care about a player's shoe color - although some found it interesting to note that Spassky played chess, once-upon-a-time, while dressed up in a bow-tie:

Let me moderate the design goal then,

<The PGN should contain as much information about the game as possible, within reason.>

Ahh, a well-placed qualifier is a well-placed qualifier.

May-01-16  zanzibar: So let's consider one example from <P&2>:

< Rd 7 - Pollock - Burn 0-1 - 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 (38 moves) >

As said, Gillam is likely using some reportage that gave the opening (e.g. C-M v7 p290), and in this case, the total number of moves for the game.

All of this info is chessic-worthy, so it goes into the PGN, like this:


[Event "Nottingham (1886)"]
[Site "Nottingham ENG"]
[Date "1886.08.07"]
[Round "7"]
[White "Pollock, William H. K."]
[Black "Burn, Amos"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C25"]
[EventDate "1886.08.03"]
[Stub "missing game"]
[PlyCount "0"]

{ @stub - missing game, Vienna Opening (C-M), 38 moves (Gillam) } 0-1


Note that I haven't used the Source tag here (but I did modify the ECO tag).

The Source tag should be used for the source of full game movelists, and perhaps for "substantial" game fragments.

I don't think it should be used for Round/Date info, or for sparse opening fragments. We can expound on this later, but for now, suffice it to say that I tried to leave concise refs in the comment.

The stub business is somewhat formalized. All stub games have a Stub tag - which indicates what kind of stub it is.

There is a comment that goes along with it, as well, to help any user recognize a stub game in their pgn-viewer.

The extra info provided by <P&2> is on display there as well. A program may not readily parse this info out, but it should be readily absorbed by any person reading it.

Premium Chessgames Member
  luftforlife: Here's a link to a kibitz from Dec-23-10 iterating a PGN header that looks quite appealing in form and content (does contain some extra fields, including Source and Source Date tags):

Denis Khismatullin (kibitz #5).

Here's a link to a kibitz (via <Tab>) iterating some criteria and desiderata for PGN-upload approval: chessforum (kibitz #20761).

Premium Chessgames Member
  Chessical: <The PGN should contain as much information about the game as practicable>
Premium Chessgames Member
  luftforlife: <Chessical>: Well-put.
May-02-16  zanzibar: Not only am I behind schedule, but I'm having a hard time getting any serious work done today.

Wonder why?

Here's the most recent <Visual Puzzle>, that might be of modest interest to some CG'ers.

Good luck.

Premium Chessgames Member
  suenteus po 147: <zanzibar> 6. Paint My Dragon, 9. Colonel Mortimer, 10. MissScarlett, 11. SwitchingQuylthug, 12. Tabanus, 13. Travis Bickle, 14. ketchuplover, 15. Karpova, 16. crawfb5, 18. twinlark. That's all I could get.

Btw, what happened to your premium membership?

May-02-16  zanzibar: <suenteus> well, <CG> was very generous in handing out the prizes during the puzzle season. They gave me a solve, when in really, I merely pointed out that a problem was "cooked".

That was for a 4-month premium, which recently ran out. Just as well, since I find myself spending far too much time in the Bistro, building collections, proselytizing, and what-not, when I have that ability.

I'd still like to see the biographer process opened up to allow non-premium members to contribute, e.g. being able to put together tournaments and the like, at least game-wise, if not intro-wise.

May-02-16  zanzibar: Someone mentioned something practical about being practical on moves, so here's a tactical for practice on practical moves:

Bang (kibitz #138)

A practical tactical!


May-02-16  zanzibar: BTW <suenteous>, I'm surprised to see #1 omitted from your list.
Premium Chessgames Member
  luftforlife: <zanzibar>: LoveThatPuzzle (LTP).

I'm sure this is a bust, but I'll try anyway:

1.f 2.n 3.r 4.c 5.q 6.i 7.e 8.d 9.b 10.h 11.k 12.l 13.o 14.g 15.m 16.j 17.a 18.p.

[Source "Brief but joyful experiences on <cg>; guesswork; zanchess weblog 2016.05.02"] (sorry to be verbose; tried to keep it concise!) :)

Are there bonus points if I transcribe the answers into descriptive notation?

Premium Chessgames Member
  Pawn and Two: <zanzibar> Regarding your question on abbreviated opening stubs, it seems to me your second suggestion may be the best. It would be good if we could verify how Gillam determined his opening stubs.
Premium Chessgames Member
  suenteus po 147: <zanzibar: BTW <suenteous>, I'm surprised to see #1 omitted from your list.> Zanzibar, was that you? You've changed your user avatar so many times, it's hard to recall if you had an "original" one.
May-02-16  zanzibar: Ha! <suenteus>, no that one isn't me. I can give that one away...

It's actually <TheFocus>.

I think the hardest one would be #4, he only used it for a short time.

PS - <luft> you did pretty good, about 2/3's right.

I hope it was a fun one, I thought of doing it almost right at the beginning of the tributes.

May-02-16  zanzibar: Oh yeah, <suenteus>, the very first avatar I used is indeed on there, but it doesn't match up to me.

Of course <Focus> doesn't use The Scream anymore. The puzzle is really a matchup to the usage of about a year or so ago.

May-02-16  zanzibar: Getting back to business...

RE: <Nottingham (1886)>

Yes, <P&2> I agree, it would be nice to get certainty for Gillam's usage, though I think it almost 90-95% sure he's using the opening labels (it almost has to be that, given the literature of the time).

Here's a link to my blog post on the tournament, where you can find an example (about 1/2 down, i.e. the C-M schedule):

Also, if I can ask a favor -

<Does Gillam have any of these 0-move stubs that you might make available?>

I have 30-complete games (31, including the nullified Skipworth) + 15 stubs.

May-02-16  zanzibar: What's this, no <Frankfurt (1887)> on CG?!

Mackenzie's triumph at age 50, and no official tournament in the index? Oh the shame.

We do have <suenteus>'s collection, fortunately:

Game Collection: Frankfurt 1887

Though it only has 202 games. 365chess has 210 games, if you know where to look:

(Of course, 365chess uses stubs... keep that in the back of your mind for now.)

* * * * *

<Luft>, need a project? Anybody?

There's even a tournament book (in German of course):

Premium Chessgames Member
  suenteus po 147: <zanzibar> Frankfurt 1887 could almost have been an omen of what lay ahead for tournament collections. When I first collected it there were more than 8 games missing from the database, and history and details were spotty at best. But I was young and oblivious and didn't know any better, so I collected what we had, submitted what was missing that I could find, and bookmarked one or two websites that had something. Of course I lost those alleged bookmarks with all the others I collected over the years, and never did find those eight missing games (knowing now they are probably lost forever). One of the great "unfinisheds" along with New York 1889 and the USSR Championships 1937 and 1954.
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