Members · Prefs · Collections · Openings · Endgames · Sacrifices · History · Search Kibitzing · Kibitzer's Café · Chessforums · Tournament Index · Players · Kibitzing

search collections   |   new tournaments   |   vote on collections   |   editor help
Kibitzer's Cafe
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 346 OF 346 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Premium Chessgames Member
  suenteus po 147: <Phony Benoni> Thanks for that. I've correct the date for that particular round. Presuming that the dates do end up being consistent for each of the round of games, then we just need a few rounds covered: Basically the replay rounds for 20, 23, 26, 30, 31, 32, 34, 35, and 37. Then maybe we'd have everything.
Premium Chessgames Member
  Phony Benoni: <suenteus po 147> Right now, I am compiling a spreadsheet listing games in each round, and adding the dates to the games here. Then I'll go through the book and compare dates, reconciling any differences. Then I'll double check on the dates of the replay games, since those don't seem to follow any pattern.

It's a nice break. I spent the last two days trying in vain to figure out a crosstable for the 1914 Western Open, and need to get away for a couple of days.

Premium Chessgames Member
  suenteus po 147: <Phony Benoni> Just like old times, ain't it? Me and the guys set 'em up and you knock 'em down. Or something to that effect.

Your US Open project is humbling, btw. Anyone who gets any ideas about the collections I've put together has clearly not been following your work. They are some of the most impressive historical collections I've seen on the site, Dave.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Phony Benoni: <suenteus po 147> Thanks, The US Open is near and dear to my heart, and I'm glad it shows.

This game needs to be added to the New York 1889 collection:

J Mason vs Taubenhaus, 1889

It's a replay game from round 36. Steinitz gives the date as May 21, which is confirmed by the New York Times for May 22.

I've finished adding dates to all the games except the replays, and will now go through the tournament book to get those and reconcile any other discrepancies.

Premium Chessgames Member
  suenteus po 147: <Phony Benoni> I've added the game, bringing the grand total to 430 games. Biggest non-Swiss format tournament ever. Steinitz's book gives May 17th as the date for the round 36 replayed game between Weiss and Martinez, which is the same round as the Mason-Taubenhaus replayed game. May 21st was given (again from Steinitz's book) as the date for the round 38 replayed games. Ultimately, what's listed in my collection is immaterial, so long as the gamescores are accurate for the built tournament page.
Premium Chessgames Member
  Benzol: <Just like old times, ain't it?>

I miss the old times.


Premium Chessgames Member
  Phony Benoni: <suenteus po 147> As the replays piled up, players who drew a number of games might not have been able to replay on the same date as others from that round. Mason actually played two replays on the 21st, according to the New York Times. First he drew with Weiss, in the game which set up the playoff, then he played and defeated Taubenhaus.

430 sounds like the right total. There were 380 in the tournament proper (10 games in each of 38 rounds), plus 48 replayed draws (428) and the four playoff games (432), minus two defaults (Showalter in round 1, Bird in round 2).

Premium Chessgames Member
  suenteus po 147: <Benzol> Then we'll just have to recreate them!

<Phony Benoni> I figured it was something like that. Always fast and loose in the 19th century with play schedules and time controls. It's a wonder any tournaments got done.

Buring the midnight oil: Game Collection: Biel Interzonal 1985

Premium Chessgames Member
  Phony Benoni: <suenteus po 147> Well, I don't know if it was "fast and loose" as much as sheer necessity. The replays, as well as any adjournments, were played on the rest days which only happened twice a week, so some piling up was inevitable. At one point, the New York Daily Tribune mentioned that Mason still had five games to make up or complete, and several other players had four.
Premium Chessgames Member
  zanzibar: Kinda fun seeing the team back in action...
Premium Chessgames Member
  suenteus po 147: <Phony Benoni> I take your point. I sometimes forget that at this time there weren't really any chess professionals (was Steinitz the first?). All of these players would have had daytime jobs they either got leave from, or were also doing around the tournament. And the stakes they were playing for I imagine wasn't much competition for what they made in their professions.
Premium Chessgames Member
  Phony Benoni: <suenteus po 147> I've cleared up a mystery, but you'll have to juggle the collection a little.

It concerns the round 25 games between Gunsberg and Mason. Both the original game and replay were draw.

Steinitz gives the following details:

Game #118: Gunsberg vs J Mason, 1889 (Petrov, 23 moves, played 4/16)

Game #119: Gunsberg vs J Mason, 1889 (Four Knights, 45 moves, played 4/24)

It seems obvious that #118 is the original, and #119 the replay. The problem is that the 25th round took place on the April 24th. (We know that's the right round because the two also met in round 6).

I've found a source (New York Sun, April 25, 1889) which describes the original game in detail. It is clearly #119, the Four Knights game, correctly dated as April 24.

Game #118, the Petrov, was actually the replay. The New York Times gives its date as May 16th, so the cause of the error is obvious. I imagine that that Steinitz put it first because he had it dated April 16th and assumed it was the original, thus causing the confusion.

So the two games need to switch places in the collection.

Premium Chessgames Member
  suenteus po 147: <Phony Benoni> Good detective work! It's no problem to switch the games around in the collection. It's already done :-)
Premium Chessgames Member
  suenteus po 147: There's been some talk about this match at a couple of the game pages, so I thought I'd put it together: Game Collection: Euwe-Keres Match 1939/40
Premium Chessgames Member
  suenteus po 147: And of course, if anyone has additional info to add to the match history (like time controls, prize purse, etc.) I would greatly appreciate it!
Premium Chessgames Member

<suenteus po> Please post the sources for the information you already have in your fine intro to Game Collection: Euwe-Keres Match 1939/40?

Including your source for the game dates.

It's been almost a year now that we have insisted that all new entries to the <Tournament Index> have all of the information properly sourced.

Premium Chessgames Member
  suenteus po 147: <jessicafischerqueen> I used the dates provided by <sneaky pete> on each of the games pages. I took the contextualization from this website: And I also downloaded a PGN from a site I failed to bookmark that had some annotations that gave some context. This is less than desirable scholarship, I think
Premium Chessgames Member
  jessicafischerqueen: <Peter>

Please don't worry about that! I have gone through hundreds of your collections, most promoted now, and I don't remember finding a mistake when comparing your information against my sources. I did add a few sources to some of your intros.

What's most important is that you include the information you just posted here in the Bistro in the intro you just wrote for Game Collection: Euwe-Keres Match 1939/40.

Any documentation of data provenance is better than none.

So you could just add in a section at the bottom of your intro:


Game dates compiled by User: sneaky pete>

And then you're golden.

I have a feeling our colleagues may be able to post more sourced information here in the Bistro to help add to your intro to this event. I can source the match crosstable to <Di Felice>, for example. Or I can when I get home from work.

Dec-22-14  gauer: suenteus po 147: <... Where was the Biographer Bistro <5> years ago??? > - non-existent (as a group forum), but look what the success of such a creation! Happy holidays to the group, as a visit to Edmonton is currently intermittent until the new year.
Premium Chessgames Member


On Game Collection: Euwe-Keres Match 1939/40

Amsterdam: Games 1,2,4,5,12,14
Utrecht: Game 3
Den Haag: Games 6,7,8
Rotterdam: Games 9,10,11
Hilversum: Game 13

Source for venues and the match crosstable:

Gino Di Felice, "Chess Results 1936-1940" (McFarland 2007), p.327

Dec-22-14  sneaky pete: The dates and locations for the E vs K match that I posted on the game pages come from the official match book by Max Euwe, published by De Schaakwereld in 1940:

Di Felice probably used the same source.

The match was organised by the Euwe Committee and sponsored by V.A.R.A. (VARA), a radio broadcaster like A.V.R.O. (AVRO). Game 13 was played in the VARA studio in Hilversum, maybe with a live radio braodcast, but that's just a guess.

In the foreword of the match book Max Levenbach, the president of the Euwe Committee, writes that a 14 game match was planned between Euwe and Fine during the summer of 1939. Keres was supposed to play with Alekhine shortly. Fine declined becuse of the growing political tensions in Europe. When it became clear that the Keres vs Alekhine match wouldn't happen, the Committee invited Keres to play with Euwe. The match book has no information about time limits and prize money.

Premium Chessgames Member
  suenteus po 147: <sneaky pete> That's fascinating and excellent stuff. I will try to work that information into the introduction tonight!
Premium Chessgames Member
  Phony Benoni: <Game Dates for Game Collection: New York 1889>

When I saw that this was being worked on again, I decided to make sure all the games had rounds numbers and dates. This became a project because Steintiz's tournament book has some conflicting dates which needed to be reconciled, and because the dates of replayed draws seemed to be uncertain.

I checked three newspapers, available at Pope's "Chess Archaeology" site, which published daily reports:

Boston Herald
New York Daily Tribune
New York Sun

Of these, the Sun has the fullest coverage and descriptions of the games. The Herald is relatively clear, despite being written by Franklin K. Young, but he has the disconcerting habits of printing games without move numbers. The man must have been a misogynist.

In a couple of cases, I also consulted the New York Times.

I found 20 discrepancies in Steinitz's tournament book. For the most part these are minor. For instance, several times the number "9" will be used instead of "4" or "6". (Did Steinitz own a typewriter or do everything by hand?)

The only one of these which caused significant confusion was when a wrong date caused Steinitz for reverse the order of the original and replayed games in round 25 between Gunsberg and Mason. I've already pointed this out, and the collection has been corrected.

In general, it appears that all games in the regular rounds were played when scheduled. When Steinitz gives a different date, it is in error.

The replays of drawn games in the second half are another matter. With five days of play a week and only one day to handle replays and adjournments, a backlog became inevitable. After the final round on May 15, the next week was spent cleaning this up.

Hence, there was no set schedule for playing these games so a list is desirable. I'll put that into another kibitz.

Dec-22-14  SimonWebbsTiger: The Danish Chess Federation is busy digitalising every copy of "Skakbladet." Here's a link you might like. Obviously a knowledge of Danish, Norwegian or Swedish will help you understand what is written.
Premium Chessgames Member
  Phony Benoni: <Replayed draws at Game Collection: New York 1889>

Round 20 (April 18): draws replayed on April 25

Round 21 (April 19): draws replayed on May 2

Round 22 (April 20): draw replayed on April 25

Round 23 (April 22): draws replayed on April 25

Round 24 (April 23): draws replayed on May 2, except Gossip - Showalter replayed on May 9

Round 25 (April 24): Lipshutz - Weiss, April 25; Gunsberg - Mason, May 16; J. Baird - Hanham, May 9

Round 26 (April 26): draws replayed on May 16

Round 27 (April 27): No draws to replay

Roun 28 (April 29): Hanham-Taubenhaus, May 16; Chigorin - Weiss, May 9

Round 29 (May 3): Weiss - Bird, May 16; Taubenhaus - Lipschutz, May 9; Mason - J. Baird, May 17; D. Baird - Blackburne, May 16

Round 30 (May 4): Delmar - Mason, May 9; Burille - J. Baird, May 16; D. Baird - Gunsberg, May 9

Round 31 (May 6): Martinez - Pollock, May 9

Round 32 (May 7): Mason - Hanham, May 18; Gossip - J. Baird, May 20; Burn - Burille, May 9

Round 33 (May 8): Gunsberg - Taubenhaus, May 17; Delmar - Gossip, May 18; Burn - Weiss, May 17

Round 34 (May 10): Martinez - Mason, May 20; Chigorin - Gunsberg, May 18; J. Baird - D. Baird, May 21

Round 35 (May 11): Martinez - Burille, May 17; Gossip - Hanham, May 18; Blackburne - MacLeod, May 17

Round 36 (May 13): Weiss - Martinez, May 18; Mason - Taubenhaus, May 21

Round 37 (May 14): Lipschutz - Burn, May 18

Round 38 (May 15): Weiss- Mason, May 21; Pollock - D. Baird, May 17; Lipschutz - Hanham, May 20; Burn - Blackburne, May 20

I have updated all the games with round numbers and dates. Replayed games have been given the extension ".1", e.g, Burn vs Blackburne, 1889 = Round 38.1


Jump to page #   (enter # from 1 to 346)
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 346 OF 346 ·  Later Kibitzing>

A free online guide presented by
NOTE: You need to pick a username and password to post a reply. Getting your account takes less than a minute, totally anonymous, and 100% free--plus, it entitles you to features otherwise unavailable. Pick your username now and join the chessgames community!
If you already have an account, you should login now.
Please observe our posting guidelines:
  1. No obscene, racist, sexist, or profane language.
  2. No spamming, advertising, or duplicating posts.
  3. No personal attacks against other users.
  4. Nothing in violation of United States law.
Blow the Whistle See something that violates our rules? Blow the whistle and inform an administrator.

Messages posted by Chessgames members do not necessarily represent the views of, its employees, or sponsors.

home | about | login | logout | F.A.Q. | your profile | preferences | Premium Membership | Kibitzer's Café | Biographer's Bistro | new kibitzing | chessforums | Tournament Index | Player Directory | World Chess Championships | Opening Explorer | Guess the Move | Game Collections | ChessBookie Game | Chessgames Challenge | Store | privacy notice | advertising | contact us
Copyright 2001-2014, Chessgames Services LLC
Web design & database development by 20/20 Technologies