< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 31 OF 286 ·
|Mar-15-16|| ||zanzibar: OK, I'll break off here, but will check back later for a read.|
* * * * *
Here's a proposed collection for promotion consideration:
Game Collection: Steinitz--Chigorin Telegraph Match (1890-1891)
It might end up being the smallest tournament - just two games. But it has clear historical significance.
One question to ask the bistro - should the role of Gunsberg and Markov be acknowledged?
By this, I mean using the teams (Steinitz/Gunsberg vs Chigorin/Markov) for the players.
(Of course, the write-up is rough, but I'm assuming it will be reworked if reworking is needed.)
|Mar-15-16|| ||jnpope: My master database (i.e. games I've authenticated/verified and added historic citations/source data for) is currently around 28000 games (most, if not all, are pre-1910 games). Many of the games I did early on were archived at pitt.edu (New York tournaments, the large Lasker file, etc.).|
I also have a "hopper" database with unsourced/unverified games that is ridiculously large (several million). Basically anything I find on the 'net I will download and add to the "hopper".
Almost every night I go through some historic text (newspapers, magazines, or books) and add a few dozen games to the master database.
I'll search the master and "hopper" to see if it is an existing game, then I play through the game move by move using the historical text (creating a variation branch if there is a deviation) and then I add some "context" text before the first move (as a comment) and I add a citation comment at the end of the game (or variation line) about where the game was found (I also add any comments if the termination/result differs between sources). Then it gets saved into my master database.
|Mar-15-16|| ||OhioChessFan: Game Collection: Euwe - Keres|
<Euwe had briefly won the world champion then lost it again >
<Since losing his title, Euwe had twice been outdistanced in tournaments by Keres.>
Prefer "After losing" and "Euwe was twice outdistanced".
<Euwe came forth >
<A new cohort of players were entering >
<Keres was feted in municipal celebration >
<the Estonian team winning the bronze medal. >
"won" the bronze medal would be a consistent usage of verb tenses.
|Mar-16-16|| ||Tabanus: <Try your proposed approach on a multi-city tournament, like <Tata Steel (2016)> and watch what happens.> SCID and ChessBase have a bad habit.|
<around 28000 games> Watch out for bulk submissions.
|Mar-16-16|| ||Tabanus: <and only uses Wijk aan Zee as the site for all the games ... it's really the only way to have precise accuracy>|
That's not accuracy. That's cheating.
|Mar-16-16|| ||TheFocus: <zanzibar> <Game Collection: Steinitz--Chigorin Telegraph Match (1890-1891)|
It might end up being the smallest tournament - just two games. But it has clear historical significance.>
Has CeeGee begin accepting two game matches? They used to not do that.
|Mar-16-16|| ||Tabanus: <(Of course, the write-up is rough, but I'm assuming it will be reworked if reworking is needed.)>|
Why not do your best with it? Make yourself proud.
|Mar-16-16|| ||Tabanus: <Well, such a system clearly works well for you.>|
It works for him, and for all who want to be serious. Truthfulness to facts and sources are as important today as before SCID arrived.
|Mar-16-16|| ||OhioChessFan: <Keres, after the Olympiad in Buenos Aires returned to Tallinn via Gibraltar, Genoa and Berlin. >|
"After the Olympiad in Buenos Aires, Keres returned........" flows better.
<He had had planned to then travel to Amsterdam by train.>
Got an extra "had" in there. "He had then planned to travel to Amsterdam....." flows better.
< He, however, had to contend with visa difficulties, so the trip had to commence from Stockholm, but the ferry to Stockholm was over-booked.>
This isn't the once every hundred years "however" is called for. It can be deleted.
<These travel problems could not have helped his frame of mind or physical preparation for the match. >
I'd like a useless segue word in there. Maybe "These travel problems surely could not have helped his frame of mind......."
<Euwe also spoke and stating his belief >
<The Games >
'Twould be nice if who played White/Black in the various games was cited before the individual game recaps.
|Mar-16-16|| ||zanzibar: <Tab> you reveal yourself to be an unhelpful fellow. Increasingly so.|
Monkey wrenching again.
|Mar-16-16|| ||zanzibar: <TheFocus> is that documented?|
Anyways, what's wrong with a two-game tournament?
Or even a one game tournament?
The latter is just equivalent to saying a game should have a unique Event/Site/EventDate triple.
|Mar-16-16|| ||zanzibar: <Tab> misrepsents my writing by malicious editing...|
<<and only uses Wijk aan Zee as the site for all the games ... it's really the only way to have precise accuracy>
That's not accuracy. That's cheating.>
The part before the ellipsis is what TWIC and Chessbase are doing, and isn't exactly what I'm advocating.
By misappropriating a fragment of a sentence I wrote later <Tab> misrepresents my thoughts/intentions.
And this from someone hell-bent on precision and accuracy?
Here's the exact phraseology I used...
<Generally, <TWIC> is very good about keeping the tournaments normalized.
This makes sense to me, since it's really the only way to have precise accuracy, given the scope of the task.>
it = Normalization = accuracy.
To say otherwise is foolishness.
And it's an important enough principle that even if slightly misapplied (as TWIC and Chessbase and the official site do) it's still better than not doing it.
<Tab> didn't even know the shape of the <CG> database was so bad with dropouts, etc. until I started exploring these normalization issues.
It is really woeful to see how little progress this important idea is making, even by those who have already benefited from it.
Maybe <Tab> doesn't like it because it's not his idea?
|Mar-16-16|| ||zanzibar: I'm putting my 2-game collection up for voting as is.|
Please don't change a word of it.
Either vote it in, or not.
It's better than this:
Game Result Moves Year Event/Locale Opening
1. Chigorin vs Steinitz 1-0 38 1890 Kabelmatch C52 Evans Gambit
2. Steinitz vs Chigorin 0-1 38 1890 Cable Match C59 Two Knights
Please note the <Cable Match> vs. <Kabelmatch>
There far too much more real work to done. The train's already left.
|Mar-16-16|| ||zanzibar: <TheFocus> here's a couple of examples of one-game "tournaments".|
The first game played by telegraph.
The first game played by wireless.
The first game played in space.
All might merit a page on <CG> just for a word or two on their historical significance.
Suppose there existed a picture of Morphy playing his Opera game. Wouldn't that merit consideration for devoting a page to a single game just to show the photograph and provide a little context?
But heck, I'd the kind of guy who would like to have bio pages for major chess figures, even if we didn't have a game of theirs for inclusion.
Like Miron Hazeltine...
|Mar-16-16|| ||zanzibar: Are we living in a special time?
People around the world, enthalled, watching chess players in the Candidates as the games unfold?
And playing them over on SCID?
Well, though few might remember, before there was SCID, and before Gore invented the internet, back when Norway was just a gleam in the eyes of Sweden, there was...
<The Steinitz--Chigorin Cable match (1890/91)>
It was the first series of games transmitted to the entire world as the games were played. Chessplayers around the globe were enthralled to follow along as the battle unfolded.
|Mar-16-16|| ||Tabanus: The game drop-outs were found by looking at the number of games, I don't need SCID to see the difference between 90 and 91. Wrong game scores also turn up yellow in CG's table.|
<it = Normalization = accuracy. To say otherwise is foolishness.> Really. What are programmers learning at school today? Here's the answer:
<even if slightly misapplied ... it's still better than not doing it.>
You are basically asking us to distort facts. I won't write <Site "NED (various)"> on a game played in Amsterdam - but <Amsterdam NED>. The former is a lie, the latter is not.
|Mar-16-16|| ||zanzibar: <Tab> you're clueless... by choice.|
You didn't find the dropouts, I did. Because I used SCID and realized the importance of xtabs.
You're going to find missing games in a 100 game tournament by hand?
And to say <(various> NED> is a lie, is itself a lie <Tab>, and you know it.
Please pay attention to the use of commas in that last sentence, you might learn at least one thing today.
|Mar-16-16|| ||zanzibar: <You're going to find missing games in a 100 game tournament by hand?>|
Yeah, you can look at the total numbers of games to see that something is missing (but you didn't).
But how are you going to know which ones are missing?
(You can't. OK, that's a lie, you can. By hand scanning. Just like you can walk around with your shoelaces tied together too. An apt analogy if you ask me).
|Mar-16-16|| ||Tabanus: <You're going to find missing games in a 100 game tournament by hand?>|
No, by eyes. I'm not blind. If there are 99 games, it means that one is missing. Got that? Then click on the games of each player, and you'll quicly find the one pairing missing.
<<And to say <(various> NED> is a lie, is itself a lie <Tab>, and you know it.> No, I don't know that, sorry.
You have now revealed yourself as what I've been suspecting for a year - a troll. I'm going to put you on ignore now, so that I can try to concentrate on what we are here for. Although you have already taken away most of my motivation.
|Mar-16-16|| ||Tabanus: Wow, the number of pages dropped from 516 to 410. Perhaps CG can inform us how much of that has benefitted them.|
|Mar-16-16|| ||chessgames.com: <Has CeeGee begin accepting two game matches? They used to not do that.> Yes, we were asked to allow that and a significant event was cited (I forget if it was the Steinitz-Chigorin match) so we lowered the minimum from 4 to 2.|
|Mar-16-16|| ||MissScarlett: It appears the voting currently stands at two in my favour, and zero in support of <zanzibar>'s PGN fundamentalism.|
|Mar-16-16|| ||chessgames.com: If I may interject, I really wish we could find a way to get along.|
I'm not surprised to find that many of us have staunch opinions on the proper and improper ways to sort out the various issues we encounter in perfecting the database. That in itself is not a problem; it's to be expected.
The problems stem from friction between editors, and when you examine the causes of such friction, it's often over what appears to be minutiae.
Please remember that none of us are at cross-purposes. We all want the same thing: a collection of PGN indexed into a database, with ample search features.
We all want the PGN to be accurate.
We all want the PGN to be normalized.
We all want the PGN to contain as much information as is reasonable.
We clearly have different views on how to accomplish this, but none of us are advocating anything terribly different. In my opinion, most of the strife here comes from debates over what I regard as mere details.
There is nobody here who I do not respect for their efforts and perspectives, even when I disagree. Everybody has something valuable to offer. It pains me to see clashes of personalities among people striving for a common goal. I am not going to tell anybody how to behave, but I honestly cannot see this project succeeding if half of us have the other half on ignore.
|Mar-16-16|| ||OhioChessFan: <Suppose there existed a picture of Morphy playing his Opera game. Wouldn't that merit consideration for devoting a page to a single game just to show the photograph and provide a little context?>|
We already have a page for that single game.
Morphy vs Duke Karl / Count Isouard, 1858
I am sure on a case by case basis we could prevail upon CG.C to add a pic. There are many famous games of Chess that don't need an intro/bio of their own, as the kibitzing and annotations generally cover it. But it need be, on a limited case by case basis, I suspect we could prevail upon CG.C to provide a bit of an intro/bio for an individual game. I see no reason this should change the standard PGN.
|Mar-16-16|| ||SwitchingQuylthulg: <cg> If you added the ChessgamesTournamentID tag to every PGN file, <zanzibar> could use that to determine which games belong to the same tournament, and the Site tag could be used to record the actual site (which is what everybody else wants) without inconveniencing him too much.|
(Of course SCID, Chessbase and other similar programs would have no idea what the ChessgamesTournamentID tag meant; but <zanzibar> could easily modify his copy of the database to get around that.)
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 31 OF 286 ·