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  crawfb5: Ran a quick test of the clone feature and had no problems. I think it will be useful in cases where the original collection owner is no longer active, too busy, or otherwise unavailable for editing.
Premium Chessgames Member <MissScarlet> That's very interesting. I wonder why Winter doesn't salvage that material from the WayBack machine and reincorporate it back into his own site?

Just testing something, the most recent notes should work, e.g. C.N. 10054, C.N. 10055, etc. The trick here is to link to the "current column" until such time as it gets archived and then our redirection script will go to the proper page. Somehow.

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  MissScarlett: < I wonder why Winter doesn't salvage that material from the WayBack machine and reincorporate it back into his own site?>

I'm sure he's got copies of all C.N.s (and other material he did for Kingpin, Inside Chess, etc.) in digital form. True, making it all available would require a lot of time and effort, but I suspect the reason is commercial: his compilation books bring in a small but persistent income.

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I'm sure <MissScarlett> is correct. I have all Winter's books, and the compilations have all the old "chess notes" missing from the website.

So by not including those in his current website, he made money from me, and I"m sure others a swell.

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  zanzibar: I wonder what CN's are in each of these books?

<Kings, Commoners, Knaves ... (1999)>

<Chess Omnibus (2003)>

<Chess Facts and Fables (2005)>

and maybe this one too...

<Chess Explorations (1996)>

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<z> All of the CNs, from the first CN up until the first CN posted on the website, are in the books.

The first numerical CN sequence is in the oldest volume, as I'm sure you can guess, and so on through each subsequent volume, up to the website listings.

Irritatingly, though, for me, is that within a given volume the CNs are not in chronological order.

Instead, the volumes are divided by "topic," and the CNs are only chronological within each topic section.

So to find a given CN, you have to look at the chronological lists within each topic section, for each volume in question.

And there are a lot of topic sections in each volume... I have all four volumes, but to be honest they are in my closet and I can't be arsed to go dig them out and tabulate which numerical CN spans are in which particular volume.

The volumes are nowhere near as handy as the website, but they do have one advantage. I'm not a "kindle reader" (and I don't care for those who are), so my volumes are all thumbed and dog eared from hauling them to Doctor's waiting rooms, bus stops, airplanes and such. Some of my pages even fell out.

I suggest you buy them all and look for yourself-

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  zanzibar: <JFQ> you sure that the books have all the CN's?

What about the loose bound volumes from the 80's?

Aug-12-16  Retireborn: <z> I have two of these books, Chess Explorations and Kings, Commoners, and Knaves (which is subtitled further chess explorations.)

The first has quite a few footnotes which are gathered at the back and usually identify which C.N. is being referenced. In the second the footnotes are dispensed with, but both books have extensive indexes of names, openings etc which make it easy to find stuff.

I don't think the books encompass every C.N. but what Winter does provide is a list of which C.N. were published by year; 1-291 in 1982 and so on.

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  MissScarlett: <I don't think the books encompass every C.N.>

They don't but it should be noted that <KCK> and <ACO> also included material from other sources and are the better for it.

I remember that I was a bit underwhelmed by <Chess Explorations> when it came out in 1996. Aside from the occasional syndicated column in <CHESS> magazine in the early 1990s, I only knew of Chess Notes by mythical reputation. It'd be interesting to know what the circulation of the journal was in the 1980s when it was, I believe, privately published and distributed.

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  zanzibar: <Tab>, if you happen to peek in, any idea of when you might be re-engaging the Bistro?

I don't need to recount how important you are to <CG>, certainly. Without you there's a void near impossible to fill.

Plus, old goat that I am, I'd miss the ocassional head-butting.

Just wanted to say...

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  MissScarlett: He'll be back when I tell him to come back. You got to know how to deal with people.
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  Phony Benoni: A quick note on Syracuse (1934), with a couple of corrections to round dates.
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  Chessical: I am submitting: Game Collection: Chigorin-Gunsberg Match, as a first draft for your consideration and comments.

I have chosen, in this instance, to try to allow the original sources to tell the tale of the match, although this involves some duplication for which I ask the reader's allowance.

I used the new cloning tool for the games, and found it useful.

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"Twas a time..."

London (1932) (kibitz #5)

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  zanzibar: "Twas a time..."

Yeah, I get nostalgic for the old times here on the Bistro...

Me and <Tab> in the good olde days.

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  zanzibar: Now I have to bleat alone...

(Does <CG> have any goat avatars?! They've got cats, dogs, and monkeys up the wazoo)

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  crawfb5: <z> The bleat goes on. You can get your own goat:

<If you know how to make GIF graphics, you can submit a custom avatar for your account. Just email a 48x48 pixel GIF (not animated) to We will add it to the set of avatars as soon as possible. One custom avatar per account, please.>

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  zanzibar: Thanks <crawfb5>, though I already tried that route once upon a time...

I'm still waiting for that Electric Ladyland icon of Jimi.

But as you say... the bleat goes on!

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  OhioChessFan: <This match (January 1st - February 17th 1890) was the precursor to a world championship match against Steinitz, it was not, however, a candidates tournament as the world champion had not agreed to play the winner. >

This is a bit of a run on sentence, and includes the dreaded "however". And there needs to be some sort of obeisance to the uncertain validity. Perhaps:

<This match (January 1st - February 17th 1890) was considered a precursor to a world championship match against Steinitz. It was not officially a candidates tournament as the world champion had not agreed to play the winner.>

<Chigorin (39y.o.) >

Needs a space between 9 and y.

<Only a few weeks later, however, on March 29th, he was playing in and then tied for first with Max Weiss in the extremely strong and large New York 1899 tournament.>

As always, "however" can safely be dele.

<Chigorin's best results were to come in the 1890s when regular strong international tournaments became a yearly rather than once in a decade.>

This is a rare occasion I'd like to add a word, "...became a yearly occurrence, rather than once in a decade."

<He was the third of fourth placed player throughout the 1890s>

Is "of" supposed to be "or"? If so, I'd prefer "rated" instead of "placed". Or if the point is he tended to end up 3rd or 4th in those tournaments, "He was often the third or fourth place finisher."

<tying a match with Tarrasch Chigorin - Tarrasch (1893) and his greatest tournament victory was to come at Budapest (1896) .>

A bit of a run on. I think this can be a new sentence eg "He tied a match with Tarrasch and his greatest tournament victory was at Budapest 1896."

<Gunsberg (35 y.o) >

Needs a period after o.

Premium Chessgames Member
  zanzibar: I'd like to comment on Game Collection: Chigorin-Gunsberg Match but don't have adequate time at the moment. Maybe tonight.

I will make this observation -

<It would be very nice if <CG> provided a way to visually offset quoted material.>

This is quite common on most other web sites, and can be done by shading or indenting (or both).

Also, I would prefer footnotes to be superscripted, as is nominally the standard. Anyone else agree?

Aug-15-16  posoo: ANY CHANCE dat da old posoo can help with biugrafoys?!
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  MissScarlett: Don't see why not. The forum needs some new blood. My (naturally, I've assumed command) initial list of 20 players deserving of a chessography will follow shortly, so feel free to pitch in, if you please. Mind you, any work will be subject to review. No slackers need apply.
Premium Chessgames Member

<zanzi appears before the bar> Superscript notes are better, but are we able to make them in the intro boxes? Can any editor who is smarter than me (viz- all of them) tell us this information?

For the World Chess Championship pages <Daniel> makes the notes superscript, but those pages have some kind of HTML voodoo that only he and <crawfb5> know how to "decode and write."

FUN FACT: <Daniel> helped <Alan Turing> crack the Enigma code.

<zebedee> We already can visually offset quoted material in the intros, and also create italics- I'll show you at the end of this Kibbutz.


My main concern with <Chessical's> titanic, and superb, research is the presentation of material.

All his sources must be listed as notes in his text- a historian has to cite all his sources throughout the document, not just those sections that are direct quotations.

In addition, directly quoted material should be introduced, not just simply dropped in to the body of the work.

For example, from the beginning of Chessical's draft:


Citing information that is not a direct quote:


This match (January 1st - February 17th 1890) was the precursor to a world championship match against Steinitz, it was not, however, a candidates tournament as the world champion had not agreed to play the winner.> The source for this information must be supplied here via a note.

<The challenger was originally supposed to be the winner of the Game Collection: New York 1889 but there had been no outright winner.> The source for this information must be supplied here via a note.


Introducing a direct quote:

<The Sixth American Chess Congress New York 1889, commenced on Monday, March 29th , 1889 and was originally to allow a fresh challenger for the world championship to emerge.

"It is the purpose of the Committee to make the Tournament a contest for the real championship of the world, thus avoiding the controversies and disputes that have so often arisen at the end of tournaments... the Book of the Congress." 7>

We need to know where that came from or who wrote it- such quotes need to be introduced.

"The book of the Sixth Congress explained that..."


"According to the book of the Sixth Congress..."


Also, I think we should continue to use the Wikipedia style of notation- if two different pieces of information come from the same source and page, there should only be one note number used for that information- as opposed to just listing every note consecutively. This reduces the number of notes used in an essay.


Here's an examplar of the composition/editing style we've been using, or at least the way <Tabanus>, <Karpova> and I have been doing it. Or HAD been doing it, since we're gone now. Apparently.

Sukhumi (1972)

The passage here covers two of the points listed above-

<Tal recalls a bizarre incident after resumption of play:

[[We were playing with a clock of far from perfect construction, and on which the flag fell at nowhere near the time control. I saw that by rights White had at least a minute left, and to demand a loss on time in such circumstances seemed blasphemous to me. All these thoughts occurred in a flash, and before the controller had time to record the fall of the flag, I made a move and pressed my clock. The game subsequently ended in a draw. ]][20 ]>

1. The direct quoted text is introduced by the writer: <Tal recalls a bizarre incident after resumption of play:>

2. The quote is offset as a separate short paragraph in italics. <Zanzabar> see the little bracket marks in the text? <]]> They don't work in this Kibbutz box but on the TI boxes they create Italics. There's also a way to make half size Italics or half size normal characters too.


Premium Chessgames Member
  crawfb5: Because the WCC intros are totally under admin control (yes, we wrote them, and yes, I embedded the HTML in them, but Daniel gave them one last once-over and actually replaced the old intros), all sorts of HTML tricks are possible.

No direct HTML is allowed in regular posts that non-admins can change (including editors). That's probably a good thing because it doesn't take much of an HTML error to produce some strange looking results.

That's not to say it couldn't be done. Just like <table[> and <]table> allowed us to finally do crosstables that lined up properly, something could be introduced to allow superscript in normal posts.

Premium Chessgames Member
  zanzibar: <<zebedee> We already can visually offset quoted material in the intros, and also create italics- I'll show you at the end of this Kibbutz.>

Ah, right, I forgot about that despite using it myself on numerous occasions.

(E.g. Steinitz - Chigorin Telegraph Match (1890))

But is this adequate?

Certainly for short quotations it is, but reading long quotations in italics is perhaps tedious. And it's not a widespread standard afaik.

Generally indenting is more common for long passages, aka block quotation.

Perhaps I'm a product of my environment, but that's my preference.

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