< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 459 OF 460 ·
|Oct-26-08|| ||Open Defence: thanks for the review <GM Keene>!!!|
|Oct-26-08|| ||Gypsy: <ray keene> Thanks for taking the time and for your words of visdom!|
|Oct-26-08|| ||AgentRgent: <The Chess Express: I still believe that 23...h5 would have been the better choice.> Me too, I pushed hard for 23...h5 but I think most already had ...Qd8 firmly in mind. Add to that the fact that I didn't have much spare time to analyze extensively at that stage of the game...|
|Oct-26-08|| ||Gypsy: I think Team Black over-estimated the strength of 24...g5; that is why the Team was so in favor of the 23...Qd8 line.|
|Oct-27-08|| ||ronpaz1: another reason for preferring 23...Qd8 over 23...h5 was that we thought that after 23...h5 24.Nh3 Black will have no counter play, and White can slowly improve his position.|
but this was based more on feelings than on specific analysis.
since the 2 moves leads to completely different positions, I guess that team members also choose acording to their preferable style.
|Oct-29-08|| ||popski: Yes 22.c1 and 22.a2 are in the same gray area for engines, but i think at least for a human impulsive brain would be better choice 22.c1. Black can go easier for a suspicious plans, i wonder how long would black team resist a3 pawn grab with an interesting consequences, on example...|
|Oct-30-08|| ||The Chess Express: <ray keene: i think that in one of the areas of debate ra2 was better than rc1 to defend the c2 pawn-the reason being that white can activate his rook via b2 if its coming from a2, whereas on c1 its permanently stuck until black shifts his b from a4.>|
I respectfully disagree. Exactly what does the do on b2? Kingside expansion is better with the on c1, and rb2 dosen't seem to give us any meaningful queenside play.
<i thought white had the advantage as simplification occurred, but i am not convinced by the tactical sequence which was inaugurated by bf4. i had the impression that white was trying to force matters by tactics, which allowed black to move his h pawn forwards and ultimately eliminate the weakness.
if i had been playing white i wd have looked around the bf4 stage for something that reduced tactics to a minimum and got white a long term strategic dark square grip.>
Specific analysis would help. 30. Bf4 did increase our influence on the dark squares.
<All> For those who are interested my analysis of 22. Rc1 starts on page 203.
|Nov-01-08|| ||ronpaz1: <The Chess Express>|
I looked briefly on yours, and other White team members, analysis on 22.Rc1 option.
it seems that most of them concentrated at 22...Bd7 replay.
but the Black team intends to answer 22...Nf7 on both 22.Ra2 or 22.Rc1.
you can check the Black team analysis and see that in most of them we intends to leave our bishop at a4 as long as it needed.
I guess that after 22.Rc1 Nf7 the White team would continue with 23.Nf2 and now the question is how should Black proceed?
after 23...Qd8, as in the real game, I think that you are correct and the rook is placed better at c1.
but after 23...h5 I think that the rook position in c1 is inferior to a2. we receive a closed position, and I can't see immediate breakthrough for White at the king wing. the weakness of a3 pawn will become an important factor eventually.
|Nov-02-08|| ||OhioChessFan: <I looked briefly on yours, and other White team members, analysis on 22.Rc1 option. it seems that most of them concentrated at 22...Bd7 replay.>|
<RonPaz> I think to be fair, the discussion of an immediate Bd7 was not because <TheChessExpress> expected it to be played, but because many on Team White feared it.
|Nov-02-08|| ||ronpaz1: <OhioChessFan>
my point is that for true evaluation which move is better (22.Rc1 or 22.Ra2) we need more then White team analysis. our team intends to retreat the a4 bishop to d7, only as a respond to Rf2-e2 maneuver. in few other line, especially if White play g3(4), we consider a retreat to c6 to support the d5 pawn and Nd6-e4 maneuver.
I think that for solving (or at least getting close for solving) the 22.Rc1 or 22.Ra2 question, we need a lot of time and engines power.
personally I don't have any of them :)
|Nov-02-08|| ||Eyal: <our team intends to retreat the a4 bishop to d7, only as a respond to Rf2-e2 maneuver.>|
Btw, that's another interesting case of one team focusing on a move which the other team didn't consider at all. We analyzed the 23.Rf2-e2 idea quite a bit, as White's most direct attempt to punish Black for the weakening of e6 resulting from Ba4. Eventually, we came to the conclusion that it's not really dangerous for us and that 23.Nf2 is White's best option, but still it seemed kind of tricky to figure this out. On the White Team's side, on the other hand, I see a post by <TommyC> on p.217 which just enumerates 23.Rf2 within a series of several "reasonable" moves, and no follow-up.
|Nov-02-08|| ||ronpaz1: <that's another interesting case of one team focusing on a move which the other team didn't consider at all>|
there were also some interesting cases when one team was surprised by the other team move. from reading White team posts, I have the impression that almost all our moves between 17-22 were a surprise for them. on the other hand the Black team wasn't ready for 30.Bf4 (which I think is a good move) and underestimate the power of 33.Bg5.
but all those surprises didn't change significantly the course of the game. and didn't cause major mistakes. in fact I am not sure that there were any mistakes at the game but only few inaccurate moves from each side.
|Nov-02-08|| ||Open Defence: <that's another interesting case of one team focusing on a move which the other team didn't consider at all> thats what made this game very interesting for me, both playing it as well as reading the kibitzing later|
|Nov-02-08|| ||Gypsy: <there were also some interesting cases when one team was surprised by the other team move. from reading White team posts, I have the impression that almost all our moves between 17-22 were a surprise for them.> |
I must say that even now those moves 17-22 of Black leave good impression and I am happy with the way we (team Black) played this part of the game.
<on the other hand the Black team wasn't ready for 30.Bf4 (which I think is a good move) and underestimate the power of 33.Bg5.>
Yes, the forcing maneuvers Bf4 Bg5 Be7 put us under a great deal of pressure and we almost blew it with 37...Ke7(?) that we originally intended to play.
It is quite interesting that in this part of the game, we (Blacks) were finding the game moves as if by braile, while <TCE> on the White side had the game variation spelled out practically a month ahead of its time.
Perhaps this was so because the Black position was clearly the more difficult one to play and we were searching for a more immediate, more forcing solutions to get to safer watters?
Anyway, it feels satisfying that we did manage to navigate between the reefs and shoal watters (to stay with a nautical metaphore) and that our winnig and drawing chances were at least equal to those of White as soon as we played <46...Kc6>.
|Nov-02-08|| ||The Chess Express: <ronpaz1> Well, <zanshin>’s Rybka 3 seems to think that 22. Rc1 is best. I’d like to see Rybka’s best line after 22…Nf7.|
|Nov-02-08|| ||The Chess Express: <Gypsy: Yes, the forcing maneuvers Bf4 Bg5 Be7 put us under a great deal of pressure and we almost blew it with 37...Ke7(?) that we originally intended to play. It is quite interesting that in this part of the game, we (Blacks) were finding the game moves as if by brail, while TCE on the White side had the game variation spelled out practically a month ahead of its time. Perhaps this was so because the Black position was clearly the more difficult one to play and we were searching for a more immediate, more forcing solutions to get to safer waters?>|
33. Bg5 looked attractive because of its forcing nature. Most people are sensible enough to not invest the kind of time I do in these games. I’d still like to know what <ray keene> had in mind after 30. Bf4.
|Nov-03-08|| ||ronpaz1: <I’d like to see Rybka’s best line after 22…Nf7.>|
there are few other interesting moments in the game that I will be glad to have engine evaluation on them:
1. 28.Qe2 instead of Qxh4 - was it better for White to leave the queens on board?
2. 23...h5 instead of 23...Qd8 - keeping the game in close nature.
3. 29...Kh7 instead of 29...29...Nf6 - I thought at the time that Kh7 is the simplest way to draw.
4. 41...Re4 instead of 41...Nd6 - I think that the Black team took good practical decision to avoid Re4, which looks to risky, and enter into slightly worse ending. but it will be interesting to see the best continueation after 41...Re4.
5. 43.g4 instead of 43.Kf3 - I think that from this point the White team start loosing her advantage. although I feel that at best continueation Black has draw.
|Nov-04-08|| ||zanshin: <The Chess Express: <ronpaz1> Well, <zanshin>’s Rybka 3 seems to think that 22. Rc1 is best. I’d like to see Rybka’s best line after 22…Nf7.>|
<TCE> After 22...Nf7:
click for larger view
Up to 19-ply, <23.Nf2> was leading, but then,
<23. g3 Bc6 24. Nf2 h5 25. Ra1 Ba4 26. Ra2 Qd8 27. Nh3 Qd7 28. Qe2 b6 29. Bg2 Qd6 30. Re1 [d=20; +0.08 Rybka 3 w32]>
|Nov-04-08|| ||The Chess Express: <zanshin> Thanks, I would probably prefer 23. Nf2 with ideas of playing g4 or Ng4. 23. g4 may be possible. Rybka 3 played a little too computer like in the line you gave.|
|Nov-07-08|| ||ronpaz1: Thanks <zanshin>
1. it is interesting that the same position in the line you gave (22.Rc1 Nf7 23. g3 Bc6 24. Nf2 h5 25. Ra1 Ba4 26. Ra2) can be reached by 22.Ra2 Nf7 23.Nf2 h5 24.g3 Bc6 with the difference that in the second case it is White to move!
2. after 22.Rc1 Nf7 23. g3 Bc6 24. Nf2 h5 25. Ra1 the only active plan for black, which I can think of, is 25...Qd8 (Qc7 or Qb6 also possible) and then 26...b5 27...a5 with the idea b4. I wonder if Rybka consider this plane and what is the evaluation of it?
|Nov-07-08|| ||zanshin: <ronpaz1> after 22.Rc1 Nf7 23. g3 Bc6 24. Nf2 h5 25. Ra1:|
click for larger view
[+0.11] d=19 25...Qa4 26.Ra2 Qa5 27.Bg2 N7d6 28.Qe5 Nf7 29.Qe2 (4:13.34)
[+0.11] d=18 25...Ba4 26.Ra2 Bc6 27.Bg2 N7d6 28.Qe5 Nf7 29.Qe2 (3:48.58)
[+0.11] d=18 25...N7d6 26.Nh3 Ba4 27.Ra2 Nf7 28.Bg2 Bc6 29.Qe2 Qa4 30.Bf3 Qa5 31.Bg2 Qa4 32.Bf3 Qa5 33.Bg2 Qa4 34.Bf3 Qa5 35.Bg2 Qa4 36.Bf3 Qa5 37.Bg2 Qa4 38.Bf3 Qa5 39.Bg2 Qa4 40.Bf3 Qa5 (3:51.00)
[+0.11] d=18 25...Bd7 26.Qe2 Ba4 27.Ra2 Qd8 28.Re1 Qa5 29.Nh3 Bc6 30.Bg2 Qa4 31.Rb1 b5 32.Ng5 (3:59.20)
|Nov-08-08|| ||ronpaz1: Thanks <zanshin>
it seems to me that Rybka doesn't have any plan for both sides :)
probably this position is hard for computers to deal with.
|Nov-09-08|| ||zanshin: <ronpaz1: it seems to me that Rybka doesn't have any plan for both sides :)>|
That pretty much sums things up ;-)
|Nov-09-08|| ||Stonehenge: From page 295, if 30...Kh7 31.Nf3 would have been played.|
<<What does 31...Rc8 do there to make progress? It undoubles the rook onto a pretty closed file. If this is the best move we can make in that position, I really hope that line doesn't win the votes.> The idea is Rc8-c6-a6. Attacking the a pawn (after our bishop has gone to d7 or e8), defending e6 and defending d6 (for our knight)>.
I still wonder if that was a good idea or not.
|Nov-22-08|| ||popski: OK CG, that's already boring, we don't have anything more to say about this game... Let's play another one! :)|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 459 OF 460 ·