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The Chessgames.com Challenge
Team White vs Team Black
F I S C H E R A N D O M   C H E S S

Hardinge Simpole Publishing

      Chessgames Challenge
Can large groups of chess fans team up to create a chess masterpiece? Find out in Chessgames Challenge!  You can vote for the move you think is best, and discuss the game with other members in the Kibitzer's Corner.

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[flip board] GAME OVER: 1/2-1/2 [flip board]

MOVES:
FISCHERANDOM STARTING POSITION NBQRBKNR
1.c4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.c5 e5 4.dxe5 Bxe5 5.Nf3 Bf6 6.Nb3 Bd7 7.Nbd4 Nc7 8.Bc3 Be7 9.b4 Nf6 10.Ne5 Ne4 11.Nxd7+ Qxd7 12.Bb2 Bf6 13.f3 Ng5 14.Nf5 Bxb2 15.Qxb2 Nge6 16.O-O O-O 17.e4 d4 18.Nd6 b6 19.f4 bxc5 20.bxc5 Nb5 21.e5 Nc3 22.Qc2 f5 23.exf6 gxf6 24.f5 Nxc5 25.Rxd4 Nd5 26.Qxc5 Qxd6 27.Qxa7 Kh8 28.Qa5 Rfe8 29.Qd2 Qc5 30.Kh1 Re5 31.Re4 Rxe4 32.Bxe4 Qc4 33.Re1 Re8 34.Bxd5 Rxe1+ 35.Qxe1 cxd5 36.h4 Qd4 37.Qg3 Qe4 38.h5 Qb1+ 39.Kh2 Qxf5 40.Qf3 Qe5+ 41.Kh3 h6 42.a4 d4 43.a5 d3 44.g4 Qd4 45.a6 Kg7 46.Qb7+ 1/2-1/2
GAME OVER thank you for playingit is now 19:47:37
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WARNING ABOUT COMPUTER USE:  The use of chess playing computers is strictly prohibited during this game. You may not post computer analysis or evaluations to the Kibitzer's Corner, or consult chess playing computer software, including endgame tablebases, to help you decide on a move. Anybody violating this rule will be suspended from the game. Chess databases (such as chessgames.com) and reference materials are permitted. Thank you for preserving the integrity of this contest.

Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 182 OF 182 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Sep-19-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  YouRang: I must admit that my main reason for doing post-mortem analysis is somewhat selfish.

During the game I advocated 22.Rde1 instead of 22.Qc2. This was based on two things: (1) I liked the idea of supporting our e&f pawns as part of our attack on black's kingside, and (2) I didn't like the positions that we (the white team) expected to arrive at after 22.Qc2 (although we weren't expecting black to play 22...f5).

Since then, I've been anxious to see if 22.Rde1 was actually any good or not.

So far, I'm gratified that it would have been a good move (maybe winning), although I'm certainly not claiming that I would have found the right followup.

Here is the line I've been looking at with computer assistance:

<22.Rde1 Nxc5 23.Qb4> (<imag> used Rybka3 to show that 23.Qf2 was stronger, but I chose 23.Qb4 since this was the move I was considering during the game) <23...Ne6 24.f4 Nc7> [diagram]


click for larger view

Now for a move that I doubt I would have found:
<25.f5! c5> (if 25...g6 then 26.Qxd4 Nxb1 27.Qh4! ) <26.Qxc5 Ne6 27.Qa3 g6 28.Qc1!> aiming at h6 <28...Nxb1 29.Qh6 Nd2>


click for larger view

<30.Re4! g5> (note 30...Nxe4? 31.Nxe4 and the threat of Ng5 is deadly) <31.Rg4 Kh8 32.Rxg5 Rg8 33.Rh5 Nf8 34.Qxd2 > and it looks like white is winning (evals around +2.00).

Sep-19-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: Try as I might, 13...g5 is leading to dwindling evals. It seems every exchange leads to a little bit of a gain for Black.

I got them steadily depressin Fritz's mind messin Fischerrandom Chessgame Blues.

Sep-19-09  blue wave: <YouRang> what happens with 22.Rde1 f5. If it threw a spanner in the works for 22.Qc2 maybe it does for 22Rde1?
Sep-19-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: I think the problem for the 12. Be1 line is Fritz never gets around to pushing the Kingside Pawns. I may go back and force that in instead of 13. 0-0
Sep-19-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  YouRang: <blue wave: <YouRang> what happens with 22.Rde1 f5. If it threw a spanner in the works for 22.Qc2 maybe it does for 22Rde1?>

After <22.Rde1 f5>, it looks like white simply has 23.Bxf5. (Obviously not possible after 22.Qc2.)

Sep-20-09  blue wave: <YouRang> yes of course. I guess that is one of the main reasons to play 22.Red1 instead of 22.Qc2.

I was just playing around with the idea of black giving up the exchange here.

22.Red1 f5?! 23.Bxf5 Rxf5?! 24.Nxf5 Nxb5 25.Qc2 Nbe4


click for larger view

And blacks has a bit of counterplay still for the loss of the exchange.

Which makes me think maybe 22.Red1 f5?! 23.Nxf5 Nxb1 24.Qxb1 d3 (or c5)


click for larger view

And black still has some initiative? Haven't looked with my chess engine though....

Sep-20-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: <OhioChessFan: At 23 plies, Fritz has both 15...a5 and 15...Nge6 at .66. What does Rybka say about 16. Nxe6 Nxe6 <17. Bd3>?>

<<YouRang: Interesting. Without waiting for high-ply results, Rybka2 says 17...b6, and actually likes black slightly better.

Low-ply continuation: 18.Bf2 bxc5 19.bxc5 Qc7>>

Fritz has a far different eval.
12. Be1 0-0 13. 0-0 g5 14. f3 Ng5 15. Bg3 Nge6 16. Nxe6 fxe6 17. Bd3 b6

18. Bd6 Be7 19. Be5 Bf6 20. Bxf6 Rxf6 21. e4 e5 22. Rfe1 Qe7 . 57 22 plies

18. e4 Bd4+ 19. Kh1 e5 20. f4 Rde8 21. exd5 Nxd5 .52 22 plies.

18. Bf2 is coming in at .21 at 18 plies.

Sep-20-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  YouRang: <OhioChessFan> I think you meant <13...g6>. Also, you changed <16...Nxe6> (which is what we were looking at earlier) to <16...fxe6>.

If <16...fxe6> is played, then Rybka2 no longer likes 17...b6. Rather, 17...Ra8 is the favorite (again, rather low ply) with 17...Bf6 a close second.

Sep-20-09  eisenherz: This was really a great game!

Congrats to all players!

I apologize to the black team if I kind of "disappeared", but I was very busy (and still am) towards the end of the game. Nonetheless I knew you guys were doing a wonderful job and the game was in very good hands!

The post-mortem analysis are very interesting indeed and I would like to share some ideas.

There's a move reckoned as the best move for white by the black team, that wasn't played: 27.Qxd6!

This move looks innocuous, but in fact eliminates black's most important piece in my opinion, the queen! White won't have another chance to exchange queens after this.

During the game I played this position several times through and I remember only once I managed to get an even position for black through a pawn sacrifice. But the problem was of course, white didn't have to accept it! So I believed the game arising after 27.Qxd6 was really very hard for black, due to the loose black pawns that sooner or later were going to fall.

Now I analyzed the position with Rybka 3 and couldn't come to a conclusion about this move (the game turns to be so complex!).

27.Qxd6 Rxd6 28.Be4 Kg7 29. Bf3 Rb8 30.Rc1 Rb4 31.Rxb4 Nxb4 32.a3 Nd5 33.Kf2 Ne7 34.Rc5 Rd4 35.Ra5 Rd7


click for larger view

Position looks suffocating for black. Very defensive, what can he do? White will centralize the king and can launch an attack either on the queenside or the kingside. Here black is losing for me.

---

After 27.Qxa7 I think the game is drawn. Black gets good initiative for the pawn, with attacking chances on the g-, b- and a- files as I already read in your analysis.

I'm looking foward to your comments!

Sep-20-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: A quick run through with Fritz shows rising evals after 27. Qxd6 It's the first time I've found anything that doesn't dwindle downward. Fritz pretty much chose the same line as Rybka, though a completely different and interesting line arises after 30. Rb1 which was close in evals at lower plies.
Sep-20-09  aidin299: excuze me ,
where is PGN of this interesting game ?
the top PGN link is for another game .
Sep-20-09  eisenherz: <aidin299: excuze me ,
where is PGN of this interesting game ?
the top PGN link is for another game .>

Hi <aidin299>! I took a look at the link and all worked fine, I downloaded the right game. Would you give it another try?

Sep-20-09  aidin299: o.k
in another try ,it seems correct if casteling (16-o-o o-o)would be applied !
Sep-20-09  aidin299: eisenhers ,
when white plays 28.Be4 black can plays Rfd8. instead of Kg7. although your offer "Qxd6" opens a forced winnig way for white : 27.Qxd6.Rxd6
28.Rd.g4+.kf7
29.Rc1.Ne3
30.Rg3.Re8
31.a3.Re5
32.Ba2+ ke8
33.Rg8+ kd7
34.Be6+ kc7
35.Rc8+ kb6
36.Rb8+ ka6
37.B.c8+ ka5
38.Rb7....
39.Ra7# ! enjoy !
Sep-21-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  YouRang: <blue wave: <YouRang> yes of course. I guess that is one of the main reasons to play 22.Red1 instead of 22.Qc2. I was just playing around with the idea of black giving up the exchange here.

22.Red1 f5?! 23.Bxf5 Rxf5?! 24.Nxf5 Nxb5 25.Qc2 Nbe4 >

I passed your line through my computer, with the following results:

Instead of 25.Qc2, it looks like sending the knight back to d6 with 25.Nd6 is quite a bit stronger, blocking black's Q+R.

However, 25.Qc2 isn't bad, and 25...N5e4 seems to be losing after 26.Qb3+ Kh8 27.e6 Qd5 28.Qxd5 cxd5 29.Nxd4

<Which makes me think maybe 22.Red1 f5?! 23.Nxf5 Nxb1 24.Qxb1 d3 (or c5)>

Unfortunately, 23.Nxf5 loses to 23...Rb8! 24.Qc2 Nxb1, and if we try to recover our piece: 25.Rxb1? d3! (attacking our queen and cutting off the defense of our knight).

Sep-22-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: Rb8 figured into just about every line in that phase of the game. It was the strongest move never played.
Sep-23-09  eisenherz: Thank you <OhioChessFan> and <aidin299> for your answers.

In your post <OhioChessfan> I think you mean 30.Re1 rather than 30.Rb1. This was indeed a interesting variation that showed a possible manouvre for black to hold the draw in all ramifications and ratify 22... f5 as a playable move.

This manouvre involves using the b-file for the black rook so it can attack white's a-pawn from behind.

Black's plan overall should be to preserve the rooks in the game, activating one of them to be an attacking piece. Eventually it seems black will lose a pawn, but even then it should be able to draw the game.

27.Qxd6 Rxd6 28.Be4 Kg7 29.Bf3 Rb8 30.Re1 Rb2 31. a4 a5 32.Rc4 Ra2 33.Rxc6 Rxc6 34. Bxd5 Rcc2 35. Bxa2 Rxa2


click for larger view

Other variations I tried also led to imho drawish positions.

27.Qxd6 Rxd6 28.Be4 Kg7 29.Bf3 Rb8 30.Re1 Rb2 31.a4 Kf8 32.Ted1 Kg7 33.h4 Ta2 34.Tb1 Td7 35.Tc1 Td6 36.Kh2 Ta3 37.Tc5 Ta1 38.Ta5 Td7 39.Tc4 Se7 40.Lxc6 Sxc6 41.Txc6 h5 42.Tc8 Te1


click for larger view

Here evals get stuck at 0.94

Or 28...Tb8 29.Tc1 Kg7 30.Ta4 Tb7 31.Kf2 Se7 32.Tc5 Td1


click for larger view

Eval 0.61

--------------
So concluding, 22... f5 seems to hold also to 27.Qxd6. That's not bad for the black team and the white team seems to have made the right option of playing 27.Qxa7.

There's still one line I would like to mention, about 22... g6. But not today.

Bye, have a good weak!

Sep-23-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  plang: <Bye, have a good weak!>

Is that intended as a backhanded compliment?

Sep-24-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  YouRang: <eisenherz><There's still one line I would like to mention, about 22... g6. But not today.>

Yes, 22...g6 is certainly the line we (the white team) was most expecting. Frankly, I don't think we had any great plan of attack against it.

I'd be interesting to know if the black team saw some danger there that we missed.

Oct-07-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  plang: When is the next game?
Oct-25-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  plang: Is there going to be a next game?
Nov-01-09  Lordknight: post..
Nov-02-09  Formula7: When is the next game? It's been almost 2 months by now!
Nov-07-09  weszhang: <eisenherz> ?
Feb-11-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  YouRang: Sometimes my mind goes back to this game, and I wonder what we (Team White) might have done differently to get the win.

One move we played that I later felt regrets about was <24.f5>. This closed our bishop's diagonal and for the rest of the game this immobile f-pawn seemed to be a great hindrance to us.

I began using the computer (of course forbidden during the game) to look for alternatives to our 24th move [diagram]


click for larger view

<24.Rd3!?>

Houdini_15_x64 @ 30 ply:
+0.52 24...Rb8 25.Rxc3 dxc3 26.Qxc3 Nxf4 27.Qg3+
+0.52 24...Kh8 25.Rh3 Nxb1 26.Rxb1 Nxf4 27.Rf3
+0.66 24...f5 25.Qd2 Ne4 26.Nxe4 fxe4 27.Rg3+
+0.66 24...a5 25.f5 Nxc5 26.Rxd4 Nd5 27.Qxc5
+0.84 24...a6 25.Rg3+ Kh8 26.Rh3 Nxb1 27.Rxb1
+0.84 24...Nxc5 25.Rxd4 Nd5 26.Qxc5 Qxd6 27.Qxa7

Among these moves, I think 24...Rb8 looks like the most likely continuation for black, and it leads to a fairly long somewhat forced line:

<24...Rb8 25.Rxc3 dxc3 26.Qxc3 Nxf4 27.Qg3 Ng6 28.Bxg6 hxg6 29.Qxg6+ Qg7 30.Qc2>


click for larger view

Houdini_15_x64 @ 28 ply:
+0.43 30...Qh7 31.Nf5 Rfe8 32.h3 Re5 33.Qd3
+0.63 30...Qg5 31.h3 Rb4 32.Rf5 Qg6 33.Qf2
+0.74 30...f5 31.Nxf5 Qf6 32.Qe2 Rf7 33.h3
+0.80 30...Qe7 31.Qc4+ Kh8 32.h3 Qe3+ 33.Kh1
+0.86 30...Rb4 31.a3 Rd4 32.Qa2+ Kh8 33.Nf5
+1.51 30...Qg4 31.h3 Qd4+ 32.Kh1 f5 33.Nxf5

Continuing, <30...Qh7 31.Nf5 Rfe8 32.h3 Re5 33.Qd3 Rbe8 34.Rf4 Rd5>


click for larger view

And another somewhat forced sequence: <35.Qg3 Kf8 36.Ne3 Rxe3 37.Qxe3 Qe7 38.Qxe7 Kxe7 39.Ra4 Rxc5 40.Rxa7+>


click for larger view

Houdini_15_x64 @ 28 ply:
+0.45 40...Kd6 41.h4 Re5 42.Ra3 c5 43.Rd3+
+0.48 40...Ke6 41.h4 Rh5 42.g3 f5 43.Ra5
+0.93 40...Kd8 41.h4 Rh5 42.g3 f5 43.Ra4
+2.09 40...Ke8 41.a4 Rc1+ 42.Kf2 c5 43.a5
+2.78 40...Kf8 41.a4 Rc1+ 42.Kf2 Rc2+ 43.Kf3

Although the engines aren't that impressed, I think this position has strong winning potential for white with the two outside passed pawns. I've stepped through a few different continuations, and out around move 55, a deep-ply engine run starts producing evals of about +1.50. It would have been a very challenging position for black to hold IMO.

Of course, it's a moot point -- the game is over and engines were out of bounds when the game was on. Mostly I'm curious about whether white had a forced win at any point in the game. I suspect that we did, but we just couldn't find it, and Team Black played a superb defensive game.

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