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The Chessgames.com Challenge
Team White vs Team Black
F I S C H E R A N D O M   C H E S S

Hardinge Simpole Publishing

      Chessgames Challenge
Can large groups of chess fans team up to create a chess masterpiece? Find out in Chessgames Challenge!  You can vote for the move you think is best, and discuss the game with other members in the Kibitzer's Corner.

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[flip board] GAME OVER: 1/2-1/2 [flip board]

MOVES:
FISCHERANDOM STARTING POSITION NBQRBKNR
1.c4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.c5 e5 4.dxe5 Bxe5 5.Nf3 Bf6 6.Nb3 Bd7 7.Nbd4 Nc7 8.Bc3 Be7 9.b4 Nf6 10.Ne5 Ne4 11.Nxd7+ Qxd7 12.Bb2 Bf6 13.f3 Ng5 14.Nf5 Bxb2 15.Qxb2 Nge6 16.O-O O-O 17.e4 d4 18.Nd6 b6 19.f4 bxc5 20.bxc5 Nb5 21.e5 Nc3 22.Qc2 f5 23.exf6 gxf6 24.f5 Nxc5 25.Rxd4 Nd5 26.Qxc5 Qxd6 27.Qxa7 Kh8 28.Qa5 Rfe8 29.Qd2 Qc5 30.Kh1 Re5 31.Re4 Rxe4 32.Bxe4 Qc4 33.Re1 Re8 34.Bxd5 Rxe1+ 35.Qxe1 cxd5 36.h4 Qd4 37.Qg3 Qe4 38.h5 Qb1+ 39.Kh2 Qxf5 40.Qf3 Qe5+ 41.Kh3 h6 42.a4 d4 43.a5 d3 44.g4 Qd4 45.a6 Kg7 46.Qb7+ 1/2-1/2
GAME OVER thank you for playingit is now 04:10:55
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WARNING ABOUT COMPUTER USE:  The use of chess playing computers is strictly prohibited during this game. You may not post computer analysis or evaluations to the Kibitzer's Corner, or consult chess playing computer software, including endgame tablebases, to help you decide on a move. Anybody violating this rule will be suspended from the game. Chess databases (such as chessgames.com) and reference materials are permitted. Thank you for preserving the integrity of this contest.

Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 181 OF 182 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Sep-17-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: <AnalyzeThis: You guys are amazing. The game is over, and you're still analyzing it like GM's.>

<Lurch: We're gonna win this one yet! >

I'm more interested in who to blame for not winning.

22 plies for most:
12. Be1 0-0 13. 0-0 Bf6 14. f3 Ng5 15. Nf5 Nge6 16. f4 a5 17. bxa5 Na6 18. Bf2

Now it took a while, but Fritz seems to think 18...Qc7 is an only move where the eval is .86 at 21 plies while the second best is 18...Qc8 at 1.70. 18. e4 is also viable so I will work back to that if Bf2 continues to decline in evals.

Sep-17-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: Quickly slid forward.......

12. Be1 0-0 13. 0-0 Bf6 14. f3 Ng5 15. Nf5 Nge6 16. f4 a5 17. bxa5 Na6 18. Bf2 Qc7 19. Qc2 g6 20. Nh6+ Kg7 21. Ng4 Qxf4 22. Nxf6 Qxf6 23. Bg3 Qg5 24. Qb2+ d4 25. Qxb7 (gasp! Be1 leads to a Queenside attack?!) Naxc5 26. Qxc6


click for larger view

And I'm beginning to think Black can hold after Qe3+, Ne4, etc

Sep-17-09  blue wave: <OCF> have set engine to run on 18.Bd3 b6.

By the way, I wonder how <7.Nfd4> would go in FRC computer in our game? With idea of <8.f3> followed by <9.Bg3>. It was discussed on page 37. It saves having to move the Bishop back by 12.Be1.

<<Whiteshark> is computer assistance allowed for post mortem?? > I don't don't see a problem with it myself. Do you not like it? I think the computer presents some interesting ideas to consider that may have been missed by everyone.

Sep-17-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: 12. Be1 0-0 13. 0-0 Bf6 14. f3 Ng5 15. Nf5 Nge6 16. f4 a5 17. bxa5 Na6 18. e4 Be7 19. Bf2 Bxc5 20. Bxc5 Nexc5 21. exd5 cxd5 22. Rxd5 Qc7 23. Re5 Nd7 (will look at g6 there, though Black's position falls apart later because of the Pawn pushes) 24. Rb5 Ndc5 25. Qc3 f6 26. Qh3 g6 27. Nh6+ Kh8 28. Ng4 Qg7 29. f5 g5 And I don't know how Black can hold this.


click for larger view

I guess 18...Qc7 is worth a look also.

Sep-17-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  YouRang: <OhioChessFan> In the <12.Be1 0-0 13. 0-0> line, how does Fritz reply if 13...g6 is played to take Nf5 away from white?
Sep-17-09  blue wave: <OCF> OK, this is what I came up with on your question.

<18.Bd3 b6> hiarcs at 20 ply

19.Bc4 bxc5 20.bxc5 a6 21.a4 g6 22.Nd6 Qe7 23.f4 Nxc5 24.Qxd4 Nxa4 25.Rf3 c5 26.Qe5 Qxe5 27.fxe5 Nb5 28.Rxf7 Rxf7 29.Bxf7+ Kf8 [+1.20 approx]


click for larger view

Then I did a slide from 29.Bxf7+ Kf8 and got at 19 ply -

30.Rf1 Nac3 31.Bd5+ Kg7 32.Rf7+ Kh6 33.Rf3 Rb8 34.Nf7+Kg7 35.Ng5 Nd4 36.Rf7+ Kh6 37.Nxh7 Nce2 38.Kf2 Rb2 39.Nf6 Kg5 40.Ke3 Nc1 41.Nh7 Kh6 42.e6 [+1.10]


click for larger view

Sep-17-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: Thanks <bluewave> White has some nice positions by Hiarcs reckoning. <whiteshark> was just kidding about the computer thing in postgame analysis.
Sep-17-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: 12. Be1 0-0 13. 0-0 Bf6 14. f3 Ng5 15. Nf5 Nge6 16. f4 a5 17. bxa5 Na6 18. e4 Qc7 went bad for Black in a hurry.

19. e5 Be7 20. Nxe7+ Qxe7 21. Bf2 f5 22. exf6 Rxf6 (which is the problem) 23. Rde1 Rdf8 24. Bh4 and wins the exchange.


click for larger view

I don't see anything else on Black's 21st move that helps.

Sep-18-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: <<OhioChessFan> In the <12.Be1 0-0 13. 0-0> line, how does Fritz reply if 13...g6 is played to take Nf5 away from white?>

<YouRang> so far 14. f3 Ng5 15. Bg3 and Fritz can't decide between 15...a5 and 15...Nce6

Sep-18-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  YouRang: <OhioChessFan> <so far 14. f3 Ng5 15. Bg3 and Fritz can't decide between 15...a5 and 15...Nce6>

That's pretty much what I have, although my computer's slight preference is <15...Nge6>, which is about the same as 15...Nce6 except that it is a bit more forcing (i.e. black is more compelled to reply 16.Nxe6).

After that, I have <16.Nxe6 Nxe6 17.e4 a5> (although 17...Qe8 gets the same evaluation). Now my computer is trying to decide between 18.f4 or 18.a3.

Sep-18-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: At 23 plies, Fritz has both 15...a5 and 15...Nge6 at .66. What does Rybka say about 16. Nxe6 Nxe6 <17. Bd3>?

FWIW, Fritz hates 16.Nxe6 Nxe6 17.e4 a5 18. f4

Sep-18-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  YouRang: <OhioChessFan: At 23 plies, Fritz has both 15...a5 and 15...Nge6 at .66. What does Rybka say about 16. Nxe6 Nxe6 <17. Bd3>?>

Interesting. Without waiting for high-ply results, Rybka2 says 17...b6, and actually likes black slightly better.

Low-ply continuation: 18.Bf2 bxc5 19.bxc5 Qc7

Sep-18-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: I am getting some bizarre evals. The position is obviously full of tension. Sometimes I hit 22 plies and see huge changes. I realize at some point it's sort of futile to run an engine through the game since the moves were decided by team votes.
Sep-19-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  YouRang: I must admit that my main reason for doing post-mortem analysis is somewhat selfish.

During the game I advocated 22.Rde1 instead of 22.Qc2. This was based on two things: (1) I liked the idea of supporting our e&f pawns as part of our attack on black's kingside, and (2) I didn't like the positions that we (the white team) expected to arrive at after 22.Qc2 (although we weren't expecting black to play 22...f5).

Since then, I've been anxious to see if 22.Rde1 was actually any good or not.

So far, I'm gratified that it would have been a good move (maybe winning), although I'm certainly not claiming that I would have found the right followup.

Here is the line I've been looking at with computer assistance:

<22.Rde1 Nxc5 23.Qb4> (<imag> used Rybka3 to show that 23.Qf2 was stronger, but I chose 23.Qb4 since this was the move I was considering during the game) <23...Ne6 24.f4 Nc7> [diagram]


click for larger view

Now for a move that I doubt I would have found:
<25.f5! c5> (if 25...g6 then 26.Qxd4 Nxb1 27.Qh4! ) <26.Qxc5 Ne6 27.Qa3 g6 28.Qc1!> aiming at h6 <28...Nxb1 29.Qh6 Nd2>


click for larger view

<30.Re4! g5> (note 30...Nxe4? 31.Nxe4 and the threat of Ng5 is deadly) <31.Rg4 Kh8 32.Rxg5 Rg8 33.Rh5 Nf8 34.Qxd2 > and it looks like white is winning (evals around +2.00).

Sep-19-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: Try as I might, 13...g5 is leading to dwindling evals. It seems every exchange leads to a little bit of a gain for Black.

I got them steadily depressin Fritz's mind messin Fischerrandom Chessgame Blues.

Sep-19-09  blue wave: <YouRang> what happens with 22.Rde1 f5. If it threw a spanner in the works for 22.Qc2 maybe it does for 22Rde1?
Sep-19-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: I think the problem for the 12. Be1 line is Fritz never gets around to pushing the Kingside Pawns. I may go back and force that in instead of 13. 0-0
Sep-19-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  YouRang: <blue wave: <YouRang> what happens with 22.Rde1 f5. If it threw a spanner in the works for 22.Qc2 maybe it does for 22Rde1?>

After <22.Rde1 f5>, it looks like white simply has 23.Bxf5. (Obviously not possible after 22.Qc2.)

Sep-20-09  blue wave: <YouRang> yes of course. I guess that is one of the main reasons to play 22.Red1 instead of 22.Qc2.

I was just playing around with the idea of black giving up the exchange here.

22.Red1 f5?! 23.Bxf5 Rxf5?! 24.Nxf5 Nxb5 25.Qc2 Nbe4


click for larger view

And blacks has a bit of counterplay still for the loss of the exchange.

Which makes me think maybe 22.Red1 f5?! 23.Nxf5 Nxb1 24.Qxb1 d3 (or c5)


click for larger view

And black still has some initiative? Haven't looked with my chess engine though....

Sep-20-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: <OhioChessFan: At 23 plies, Fritz has both 15...a5 and 15...Nge6 at .66. What does Rybka say about 16. Nxe6 Nxe6 <17. Bd3>?>

<<YouRang: Interesting. Without waiting for high-ply results, Rybka2 says 17...b6, and actually likes black slightly better.

Low-ply continuation: 18.Bf2 bxc5 19.bxc5 Qc7>>

Fritz has a far different eval.
12. Be1 0-0 13. 0-0 g5 14. f3 Ng5 15. Bg3 Nge6 16. Nxe6 fxe6 17. Bd3 b6

18. Bd6 Be7 19. Be5 Bf6 20. Bxf6 Rxf6 21. e4 e5 22. Rfe1 Qe7 . 57 22 plies

18. e4 Bd4+ 19. Kh1 e5 20. f4 Rde8 21. exd5 Nxd5 .52 22 plies.

18. Bf2 is coming in at .21 at 18 plies.

Sep-20-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  YouRang: <OhioChessFan> I think you meant <13...g6>. Also, you changed <16...Nxe6> (which is what we were looking at earlier) to <16...fxe6>.

If <16...fxe6> is played, then Rybka2 no longer likes 17...b6. Rather, 17...Ra8 is the favorite (again, rather low ply) with 17...Bf6 a close second.

Sep-20-09  eisenherz: This was really a great game!

Congrats to all players!

I apologize to the black team if I kind of "disappeared", but I was very busy (and still am) towards the end of the game. Nonetheless I knew you guys were doing a wonderful job and the game was in very good hands!

The post-mortem analysis are very interesting indeed and I would like to share some ideas.

There's a move reckoned as the best move for white by the black team, that wasn't played: 27.Qxd6!

This move looks innocuous, but in fact eliminates black's most important piece in my opinion, the queen! White won't have another chance to exchange queens after this.

During the game I played this position several times through and I remember only once I managed to get an even position for black through a pawn sacrifice. But the problem was of course, white didn't have to accept it! So I believed the game arising after 27.Qxd6 was really very hard for black, due to the loose black pawns that sooner or later were going to fall.

Now I analyzed the position with Rybka 3 and couldn't come to a conclusion about this move (the game turns to be so complex!).

27.Qxd6 Rxd6 28.Be4 Kg7 29. Bf3 Rb8 30.Rc1 Rb4 31.Rxb4 Nxb4 32.a3 Nd5 33.Kf2 Ne7 34.Rc5 Rd4 35.Ra5 Rd7


click for larger view

Position looks suffocating for black. Very defensive, what can he do? White will centralize the king and can launch an attack either on the queenside or the kingside. Here black is losing for me.

---

After 27.Qxa7 I think the game is drawn. Black gets good initiative for the pawn, with attacking chances on the g-, b- and a- files as I already read in your analysis.

I'm looking foward to your comments!

Sep-20-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: A quick run through with Fritz shows rising evals after 27. Qxd6 It's the first time I've found anything that doesn't dwindle downward. Fritz pretty much chose the same line as Rybka, though a completely different and interesting line arises after 30. Rb1 which was close in evals at lower plies.
Sep-20-09  aidin299: excuze me ,
where is PGN of this interesting game ?
the top PGN link is for another game .
Sep-20-09  eisenherz: <aidin299: excuze me ,
where is PGN of this interesting game ?
the top PGN link is for another game .>

Hi <aidin299>! I took a look at the link and all worked fine, I downloaded the right game. Would you give it another try?

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