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The Chessgames.com Challenge
The World vs Natalia Pogonina
C U R R E N T   P O S I T I O N

Hardinge Simpole Publishing

  
   Chessgames Challenge
Can a group of chess amateurs team up to beat a grandmaster?  Find out in the Chessgames Challenge!  You can vote for the move you think is best, and discuss the game with other members on this page.

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[Natalia Pogonina]

[flip board] GAME OVER: 1/2-1/2 [flip board]

MOVES:
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.g3 Bb4+ 5.Bd2 Be7 6.Bg2 c6 7.O-O O-O 8.Qc2 b6 9.Rd1 Nbd7 10.Bf4 Ba6 11.Nbd2 Rc8 12.Rac1 Nh5 13.Be3 Nhf6 14.Bg5 h6 15.Bxf6 Bxf6 16.b4 Bb7 17.Qb3 Ba8 18.c5 a5 19.a3 Rb8 20.Qc2 Bb7 21.e4 Qc7 22.Nf1 dxe4 23.Qxe4 Rfd8 24.Ne3 Ba6 25.Ng4 Bb5 26.Qc2 axb4 27.axb4 Be7 28.Ra1 h5 29.Ne3 Bf6 30.Ra3 bxc5 31.bxc5 Ra8 32.Rxa8 Rxa8 33.Bf1 Bxf1 34.Kxf1 e5 35.dxe5 Nxe5 36.Qe4 Nd7 37.Qf5 Ra7 38.Qxh5 g6 39.Qg4 Nxc5 40.h4 Ra4 41.Nc4 Qb7 42.Kg2 Qb3 43.Qc8+ Kg7 44.Nd6 Qxd1 45.Ne8+ Kf8 46.Nxf6+ Kg7 47.Ne8+ Kf8 48.Nf6+ Kg7 49.Ne8+ Kf8 50.Nc7+ Kg7 51.h5 Ra1 52.h6+ Kf6 53.Qh8+ Ke7 54.Qe8+ Kd6 55.Qd8+ Nd7 56.Ne8+ Kc5 57.Qe7+ Kb6 58.g4 Ra4 59.Qd8+ Ka6 60.Nf6 Rf4 61.Ne5 Rxf2 62.Kxf2 1/2-1/2
GAME OVER thank you for playingit is now 07:04:30
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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 1067 OF 1068 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Mar-03-11  karpkasp: addenda: After 5. a4 c5, Houdini gives 6. e3 Nc6 7. Bxc4 Nf6

This transposes in the Semi-Slav variant, or in a QGA where black used 2 tempi to play c5.

Mar-03-11  blue wave: <cro777> <38.Re4 f5> I really must confess I underestimated the strength of blacks position. Does white still have an edge?


click for larger view

hiarcs13.1
Depth : 25/1
Time : 01:48:52
Nodes : 4766530K
N/sec : 729697

Score : +0.05
39. Re8 Kh7 40. Re7 Kh6 41. Rxd7 Rxc4 42. Rc7 Re4 43. Bg7 Kg6 44. g4 Re1 45. Kg2 b3 46. Rb7 fxg4 47. Rxb3 Kxg7 48. Rxa3 Rd1 49. Ra7 Kf6 50. d7

Score : +0.03
39. Rd4 b3 40. h4 gxh4 41. Kh2 b2 42. Bxb2 axb2 43. Nxb2 Kf7 44. Nd3 Rc6 45. Nf4 Kf6 46. Rd5 Rc4 47. g3 Re4

Score : -6.43
39. Re1 Rxc4 40. h3 b3 41. Rb1 a2 42. Rxb3 Rc1 43. Kh2 Rxa1 44. Ra3 Kf7 45. g3 Ke6 46. Ra6 Nc5 47. Ra8 Kxd6

Mar-03-11  blue wave: hiarcs13.1
Depth : 26/1
Time : 02:12:51
Nodes : 5784183K
N/sec : 725606

Score : +0.03
39. Rd4 b3 40. h4 gxh4 41. Kh2 b2 42. Bxb2 axb2 43. Nxb2 Kf7 44. Nd3 Rc6 45. Nf4 Kf6 46. Rd5 Rc4 47. g3 Re4

Score : +0.01
39. Re8 Kh7 40. Re7 Kh6 41. Rxd7 Rxc4 42. Rc7 Re4 43. Bg7 Kg6 44. g4 Re1 45. Kg2 b3 46. Rb7 fxg4 47. Rxb3 Kxg7 48. Rxa3 Rd1 49. Ra6 Kf6 50. Kg3 Rg1

Score : -6.43
39. Re1 Rxc4 40. h3 b3 41. Rb1 a2 42. Rxb3 Rc1 43. Kh2 Rxa1 44. Ra3 Kf7 45. g3 Ke6 46. Ra6 Nc5 47. Ra8 Kxd6

Mar-04-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  cro777: <blue wave: <cro777> Just saw your assessment of 26.fxg6.

Score : +0.87
31. d6 a3 32. Nxa3 Rxc1 33. Rxc1 bxa3 34. Bxa3 f5>

You have witnessed the dynamics of the engine's evaluations, from this initial to the last one. Moreover, Black sacrificed a piece (28...Bxc4) with only positional compensation. That is why positional understanding is considered to be a very important element in interpreting the computer output. The game has been all the time in a dynamic equilibrium.

Mar-04-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  cro777: <karpkasp: I wonder if the output of the computers is valuable so early in the opening. Nonetheless, I think it's an interesting way to learn something about the opening.>

Chess engines can use their search algorithms and look through all possible continuations to find the best next move from the beginning of the game but it is quite time consuming (during the first moves the positions are extremely open-ended and thus computationally expensive to evaluate). The provision of an electronic version of an opening book (a database of stored moves and positions, a special kind of tree) allows the engine to save time and provide higher quality of play. Most opening books are created from a large sample of games but the really good ones contain the latest theory from many sources as well as sorts of original analysis. Regrettably, it is an underutilized resource in our games.

Therefore, you cannot play good openings relying simply on computer output (calculated moves) at the beginning of the game. But engines are absolutely helpful in checking opening lines as well as looking for opening improvements or novelties.

Mar-04-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  cro777: <karpkasp: <cro777 & others> After 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 e6 4. Nf3 dxc4!?>

The Noteboom is one of the most complicated variations in the whole opening theory.

Opening book (Rybka 4 Aquarium):

5.a4 2644 46% (+0.18)

5.e3 789 45% (+0.18)

5.e4 514 39% (+0.04)

5.Bg5 170 64% (+0.07)

5.g3 151 53% (-0.04)

Delaying wih 5.a4 gives Black more comfortable options. After 5.a4:

5...Bb4 2618 54% (+0.18)

5...Nf6 23 43% (+0.29)

5...c5 9 39% (+0.26)

5...Bd7 6 17% (+0.44)

5...b6 4 38% (+0.48)

The two columns after the move are based on the game database that Jiri Dufek (the creator of the opening book) used as “raw material” to generate the initial version of the book. He began with high-level correspondence games (Elo rating over 2300), but added more games, including chess engine games (combining the best of both human chess and computer chess). The first column shows the number of games where the corresponding move was played (showing move popularity), then we see how successful that move was. The evaluation column is based on chess engine analysis of the position after the move in the move column. (Jiri Dufek was also a member of Topalov's analysis team in the world championship match against Anand).

Mar-04-11  blue wave: <cro777> <You have witnessed the dynamics of the engine's evaluations, from this initial to the last one. Moreover, Black sacrificed a piece (28...Bxc4) with only positional compensation. That is why positional understanding is considered to be a very important element in interpreting the computer output. The game has been all the time in a dynamic equilibrium.> Yes, thanks a very interesting lesson in positional understanding and opening theory. I understand a bit more of the noteboom opening theory now. The computer doesn't seem to give enough value to blacks passed a and b pawns earlier in the line I looked at. Thanks.
Mar-06-11  karpkasp: <cro777> Thanks for mentioning the Fritz vs Kramnik game, I completely forgot the opening but remember well the blunder (I've really a strange memory).

Some thoughts about the 3... b5 variant:

1) Houdini 1.5 tends to agree with the moves played. Minor exceptions are 8... Bf5 (vs 8... e6) and 10. O-O (vs 10. Bg5).

8... Bf5 doesn't score well in practice according to the Chesslab database.

10. O-O Ba6 11. Bxa6 Nxa6 12. Bg5 0.10 (Houdini 1.5, 27 ply)

2) But there is a major exception: Houdini (and I) prefers 5. axb5 to 5. Nc3 transposing in the Slav defence.

5. axb5 cxb5 6. Nc3 Bd7 7. d5!? and here, Houdini 1.5 plays 7... a6 and gives 8. b3 b4 9. Na4 cxb3 10. Qxb3 Bb5 11. Qxb4 Bxb1 12. Kxb1 e5 0.40 (25 ply)

Here, I've some questions.

1) Why did Kramnik play the 3... b5 variant and Fritz the 5. Nc3 variant? Did Houdini or I miss something about the 5. axb5 variant?

2) Is there some games on the subject? The Chesslab database mentions only one game where 7. d5 e5?! was played in 2010.

Mar-06-11  karpkasp: <cro 777 & Blue wave> In the Bern - Vukcevic game, I don't see the point of 17. Kh1 (Houdini plays it for some reasons).

Is this move a theoretical novelty? I found a game where 17. Bc2 was played and I prefer this to 17. Kh1.

Mar-06-11  blue wave: <karpkasp> I think the point of 17.Kh1 is to play f4 as soon as possible with out the problem of black playing threatening <...Qd3+> and maybe white losing the LSB at d3.

But I see you point, 17.Bc2 is a natural move in the position. It seems my engine Hiarcs 13.1 likes 17.Kh1 too. I think playing OTB, the move 17.Kh1 doesn't feel natural. It does seems computer driven.

Mar-06-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  cro777: <karpkasp: 1) Why did Kramnik play the 3... b5 variant and Fritz the 5. Nc3 variant? Did Houdini or I miss something about the 5. axb5 variant? 2) Is there some games on the subject? The Chesslab database mentions only one game where 7. d5 e5?! was played in 2010>

The move 5.axb5 is considered to be an interesting idea. It was played by GM Alex Yermolinsky who continued:

5...cxb5 6.Nc3 Bd7 7.Nf3 Bd7 7.Nf3 e6 8.Be2 Nf6 9.0-0

7.d5 has been played both OTB and in correspondence chess but not at a higher level.

Generally, the choice of the move should primarily suit the player's style (and the player must be familiar with the type of position, of course).

In the game Bern - Vukcevic 17.Kh1 is a usual prophylactic move preparing f4. That was the best plan for White.

Mar-07-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  morfishine: <blue wave> Ref POGO endgame, the end is in sight! Its been exhausting yet very useful to see this through. Appreciate your help. morfishine chessforum
Mar-07-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  chessgames.com: The registration for the third Chessgames Team Game has just begun:

Chessgames Challenge: Team White vs Team Black, 2011

The game is for premium members, however anybody may observe the game while it's in progress. Kibitzing will be in two distinct private forums which will, upon the conclusion of the game, be merged and made public.

May the best team win!

Mar-07-11  Penguincw: Thanks chessgames.com.
Mar-08-11  karpkasp: <cro777> Thanks for mentioning the 7. Nf3 option. I found 3 games following the moves you indicated. In all these games, 9... Be7 was played while Houdini prefers 9... Bb4 with a small edge to white.

I played OTB the inferior 7. Bf4?! but white has nothing after 7... e6!

Finally, I think it's interesting to mention what I played the first time I was confronted to 3... b5.

I was really surprised to see Rybka playing this and I opted for an exchange sac

4. a4 c6 5. axb5 cxb5 6. b3!? (Now, I think 6. Nc3 is stronger) 6... e5 7. bxc4!? (7. Nf3 is quieter and maybe better) 7... Bb4+ 8. Bd2 Qxd4 9. Bxb4 Qxa1 10. cxb5 and white has some compensation because of the exposed situation of the black King and Queen.

I was really surprised to found a game where 7. bxc4 was played (by Kasparov!) but his opponent replied with 7... b4.

Do you know a game where the exchange sac was played? Houdini gives a small edge to black after 10... Be6, a correct evaluation I think.

Mar-09-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  cro777: <karpkasp: Do you know a game where the exchange sac was played?> An interesting short game with double exchange sac:

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2004.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Ottershagen Hans"]
[Black "Wrede Christian"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "D20"]
[PlyCount "33"]
[EventDate "2004.02.02"]
[Source "Opening Master"]
[SourceDate "2011.02.03"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 dxc4 3. e4 b5 4. a4 c6 5. axb5 cxb5 6. b3 e5 7. bxc4 Bb4+ 8. Bd2 Qxd4 9. Bxb4 Qxa1 10. cxb5 Nf6 11. Bc4 Qd4 12. Qxd4 exd4 13. e5 Bb7 14. exf6 Bxg2 15. Nf3 Bxh1 16. Ne5 gxf6 17. Bxf7+
1/2-1/2


click for larger view

Mar-09-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  morfishine: Today is Natalie Pogonina'a birthday. Happy Birthday Natalie!
Mar-13-11  karpkasp: <cro777> Thanks for this game! White can improve with 11. Nf3! with the edge according to Houdini.

The real test of the 3... b5 line is the 7. d5 variation.

Mar-13-11  karpkasp: During the game the line 22. exd5 exd5 23.cxb6 Qxb6 24. Bh3 was analysed and it was mentioned that 24... Rbd8 is better than 24... Rfd8.


click for larger view

I didn't understand exactly why at that time. Now, I think that 24... Rbd8 prevents pins on the b column.

Concretely:

24.... Rbd8 25. Nb3 axb4 26. axb4 Qxb4 27. Bxd7 Rxd7 28. Nc5 Re7 29. Rb1 Qa3 30. Rb3 Qa7 is equal according to Houdini 1.5

The same moves are losing after 24... Rfd8 because of the pin on the b column:

24... Rfd8 25. Nb3 axb4 26. axb4 Qxb4? 27. Bxd7 Rxd7 28. Nc5 Re7? 29. Rb1! 2.24 and then Houdini indicates 29... Qa5 30. Rb3 Qc7 31. Qb2 Qc8 32. Re1 Rxe1+ 33. Nxe1 Qg4 34. Rxb7

Of course, 24... Rfd8 is playable: black can "improve" with 28... Rdd8 1.20 but 26... Nf8! is the right move 0.10 according to Houdini.

Mar-23-11  bigchris: on 30 Jan 2011
<<Natalia Pogonina>: Thanks to everyone for playing...

Right now I am quite busy competing at the Tradewise Gibraltar Chess Festival; planning to play in the A group at Aeroflot Open next. Therefore, I am afraid I won’t be able to share my analysis & annotations with you promptly. Besides that, your own tree is probably more extensive and deeper since a lot of people have been contributing and, I guess, there has been a lot of discussing going on. On my side, I was playing rather straightforwardly and relying more on intuition than on sophisticated calculation.>

based on her comment, i was expecting her to give us a debriefing and share her thoughts--but just not promptly. it's now been almost 2 months. i'm about to give up on her. is anyone else still holding out?

Mar-23-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  Check It Out: I'm still waiting for the in depth article by her husband :)
Mar-24-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  SamAtoms1980: <Tabanus: Extended list of analysts (please forgive me): ....... scormus, castle dweller, Thanh Phan, morfishine, SamAtoms1980, bayowulf, Garech, DaringSpeculator, Kinghunt, ....... WinKing, Once, zzzzzz. I love you all!>

Hey, I made your list :-)

Apr-10-11  kevins55555: Very few people voted h7. How annoying. It is the best according to Rybka.
Apr-22-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  LIFE Master AJ: <<Mar-23-11 Check It Out: I'm still waiting for the in depth article by her husband :)>>

Its due out in May ... of 2199. ;)

May-13-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  LIFE Master AJ: Did anyone ever find a forced win ... at ANY point ... for the "World Team" here? (Just curious.)
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