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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 184 OF 185 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Jul-22-11
 | | YouRang: <capafan: <YouRang>My line may not be as "defensive" as I thought if White is aggressive and attempts Rh3. <cro777>'s line is no doubt better.> Yes, as you say, I think your line is an example of where the rook lift Rh3 is strong. I'll take a look at <cro777>'s line: 11.h4 c4 12.Be2 b5 13.Nh3 Qa5 14.Nf4 Nc6 15.Nh5 g6 16.Nf6 b4 17.Qg3 Qb6 Of course, I'm not guaranteeing that 11.h4 / Nf3 / Nf4 wins for white -- but I think it would have given them more mobility and more attacking potential, and more headaches for black. :-) <Tabanus> I was worried when I saw your name and <imag>'s on the opposing team (among other strong players). Throughout the game we were worried about the sort of deep sliding tricks you two are known for. :-) Fortunately for us, neither of you had bunches of spare time to devote to this game! We were doing some spying during the game and noticed at times that Team White had relatively few people (at least among the well-known names) who were active. Team Black had several very active and good players at work, so it's a testimony to team white that you held a strong position throughout the game. |
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Jul-22-11
 | | WinKing: < Tabanus: Perhaps 20.Ng1 saved our neck. I felt we had too few sliding analyses on team White, and my time was also limited. > At first I thought this move(20.Ng1) might give white winning chances <Tabanus>. The more I worked on it the more I began to realize that it was a very 'solid' move with good underlying ideas & black would have to be cautious in the ensuing lines. Your team as a whole <Tabanus> did a great job, IMO, sharing responsibilities. The likes of <Boomie>, <blue wave> <chesstoplay>, <chrisowen>, <David2009>, <Golden Executive>, <imag>, <lost in space>, <morfishine> & yourself(hope I didn't miss anyone) did a nice job of breaking down the various, team black, moves you would encounter. I have always admired your analytical skills <Tabanus> along with my teammate's <capafan>. Thanks for the kind words <Tabanus> about my teammates & myself. We, Team Black, have the utmost respect for you & your peers on Team White. |
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Jul-22-11
 | | chrisowen: <WinKing> <cro777> I usurp n4 king d8 c7 lever it b4 ay on good time g8 raft queen tin use assualt missed her f6 gulp gfile g6 we thought black could defend it dumb? <19.Rg1 b4 20.cxb4 axb4 21.g5 hxg5 22.Rxg5 Rh7 23.Qf6 Qf8?! 24.Rag1 Be8 25.Nh4 Ne7 26.axb4 Rxb4 27.h6 g6 28.Bg4> 
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Jul-22-11
 | | chesstoplay: < chrisowen > was Team White's secret weapon. As I said during the game, I was very happy he was on our team. With Team Black's clear computer talent, we needed some balancing edge. < chrisowen > always generated ideas no matter the position. < Tabanus > < imag > and < Boomie > were our consistant leaders. < blue wave > , < Albertan > , < morfishine > and a few others were always in the wings ready and willing for discussion. I was just a line runner hoping to spark the top tacticians. Others I remember helping the team wrap up the draw up were: benjinathan , boombuster , cornflake , David2009 , dzechiel , Ghuzultyy , kevins55555 , kirchhoff , M.Hassan , Penguincw , PinnedPiece and SmotheredKing. I often felt that < blue wave >'s enthusiastic posts were the daily glue that helped hold the team together. He's a great guy and a great team mate!
Again, great job by both teams.
:) |
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Jul-22-11
| | YouRang: A random highlight:
<
May-18-11 benjinathan: <<Are computers really <a<l<l<o<w<e<d<>>>>>>>>> in this thing???>> <<<<<<<<<<<<NO. <<<<<<WE>>>>>> are ALL <<<<<<<<<<<<CHEATING>>>>>>>>>>>>
lol! |
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Jul-22-11
| | WinKing: <chrisowen> did <capafan> put you up to posting this position? ;) 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Bb4 5.e5 h6 6.Bd2 Bxc3 7.bxc3 Ne4 8.Qg4 Kf8 9.Bd3 Nxd2 10.Kxd2 c5 11.Nf3 c4 12.Be2 Bd7 13.Qf4 Nc6 14.h4 b5 15.a3 a5 16.Rhb1 Rb8 17.h5 Qe7 18.g4 <18...Kg8>
<19.Rg1 b4 20.cxb4 axb4 21.g5 hxg5 22.Rxg5 Rh7 23.Qf6 <Qf8?!> 24.Rag1 Be8 25.Nh4 Ne7 26.axb4 Rxb4 27.h6 g6 28.Bg4>
click for larger viewI was going crazy seeing our rook placed on h7 during the course of our game & it happened in many of the computer generated lines. Sometimes I would wonder how these engines could ever beat humans when they might allow such moves(...Rh7) to take place. We may as well put a 'toe tag' on that rook(h7) that says R.I.P.. The move 23...Qf8?! helps seal the rook's coffin(23...bxa3 seems somewhat better). The possibility of scenarios such as this is one of the main reasons why our team finally decided placing the king on g8 might not be considered a best course of action. Another factor was the potential 'hole' created on f6 after black's move ...g6 that might be used against us. I get the 'willies' every time I see a position such as the one above. |
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Jul-22-11
 | | cro777: <chesstoplay: < chrisowen > was Team White's secret weapon...he always generated ideas no matter the position.> Here is one of his ideas. After <17.h5> Team White expected <17...Kg8> keeping the black king on the kingside. Instead we played 17...Qe7 followed by 18...Ke8 to avoid beeing the target of a kingside onslaut like the one in the following <chrisowen>'s winning (?) line after <17...Kg8 18.g4 Qe7> <chrisowen: Is there a win?
19.Rg1 b4 20.cxb4 axb4 21.g5 hxg5 22.Rxg5 Rh7 23.Qf6 Qf8?! (better is 23... bxa3) 24.Rag1 Be8 25.Nh4 Ne7 26.axb4 Rxb4 27.h6 g6 28.Bg4>
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28...Rb6 29.f4 Rxh6 30.Rh1 c3+ 31.Ke3 Ba4
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32.Nxg6 Nxg6 33.Rxh6 Qxh6 34.Qd8+ Kg7 35.Qf6+ (35.Qxb6?? Qh1) Kg8 36.Qd8+ perp Not a win, but Bertrand Russel would say that the man who likes such lines is at advantage over the man who doesn't. |
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Jul-22-11
| | WinKing: <cro777: Not a win, but Bertrand Russel would say that the man who likes such lines is at advantage over the man who doesn't. > The line you show takes me out of my comfort zone <cro777>. Nice analysis. :) |
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Jul-22-11
| | WinKing: Just out of curiosity <cro777> can black get away with <28...Rxh6?!>
instead of your <28...Rb6>? I know the e6 square is critical & must be defended by black. Something like this maybe:
click for larger view<<28...Rxh6?!> 29.Rh1 <Bd7> 30.Nxg6 Nxg6 31.Rxg6+ fxg6 32.Qxf8+ Kxf8 33.Rxh6 Kg7> 
click for larger viewThe line I show above was Rybka 3 at d=20. So I'm assuming your move <28...Rb6> was obtained at a deeper depth. The above seems like it will be drawn but is not nearly as attractive as your line. |
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Jul-22-11
| | cro777: <WinKing> After <28...Rxh6 29.Rh1 <Bd7> 30.Nxg6 Nxg6 31.Rxg6+ fxg6 32.Qxf8+ Kxf8 33.Rxh6 Kg7> White has small plus. |
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Jul-22-11
 | | blue wave: <Apr-23-11
blue wave: <Tabanus><9...Nxd2 10.Kxd2 c5 11.Nf3 Nc6 12.Qf4 c4 13.Be2 Qa5 14.a3 Bd7 15.h4 Kg8 16. h5 Rf8 17.g4 f6> This seems like a strong solid line for black.
I have one suggestion to try and speed up whites attack.Play g4 and g5 first (before h4 and h5) to save time, especially if black plays Qa5 in the opening. 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 Bb4 5. e5 h6 6. Bd2 Bxc3 7. bxc3 Ne4 8. Qg4 Kf8 9. Bd3 Nxd2 10. Kxd2 c5 11. Nf3 Nc6 12. Qf4 c4 13. Be2 Qa5 14. a3 Bd7 15. g4 Kg8 16. g5 Ne7 17. gxh6 Rxh6 * click for larger view
hiarcs13.2mp - multiPV[2]
21/1 00:05:23 155346024 480525
+0.57 18. h4 Kf8 19. h5 b5 20. Nh2 f5 21. exf6EP Rxf6 22. Qe5 +0.05 18. h3 Ng6 19. Qg4 Qd8 20. h4 f5 21. Qg3 Be8 22. Ng5 Qe7 23. a4 Nf8 24. a5 Bh5 25. f3 Rc8 26. Rhg1 Nh7 27. a6> >This suggestion I made I think in hindsight may have been better then 14.h4. |
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Jul-22-11
| | blue wave: Also
<May-22-11
blue wave: btw I've based my analysis on the common theme moves of <16...Rb8>
Rybka 29 Ply - <17.g4 Qe7 18.h5 Kg8> Pretty likely. Of course I could be wrong but nice moves all round.Rybka 22 Ply - <19.Qe3 g5> I like Qe3, I like the solid feel of this move. Defends c3, d4 & e5. But I'm intrigued at to why Rybka and Hiarcs push the g pawn to g5? I don't really understand why? Why does black lash out like this? Is black starting to feel some pressure? Or is it simply because white can no longer play Qf6 after moving to e3? Still, I think the move g5 can create a weaker pawn structure around the black king and give white the opportunity to place the rooks in attack on the h file. At this point I felt it worth looking at the move <20.hxg6EP fxg6> Black has no other option as I can see? Now at this point white has to try to get in f4 as far as I can see? Blacks going to mount pressure on the f file. So white responds with <<<<21.Ne1>>> Qf7 22. f4 Kg7> The black rooks really need to get in touch with each other and this move strengthens the weak pawns a little. I have wondered if moving the king to g7 is a mistake here for black? Maybe it should be getting out and going to e7? <23.Ng2> White is now ready to switch to a kingside attack. Whites f pawn is well protected by the knight. The h file looks attractive for an attack with rooks. Analysis provided provided by haircs13.2mp - 23 ply
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23/6 01:48:01 3073758K 474268
<+0.58> 23... Rb6 24. Bf3 Ne7 25. Rh1 Ra6 26. Rh4 Raa8 27. Rg1 Rab8 <+0.61> 23... Ne7 24. Rh1 Rh7 25. Rag1> I still feel that the moves of <Ne1> then <Ng2> for white hold a lot of potential in this line. Mind you in our game the black king didn't go to g8. But still I feel there is potential in the knight going to the g2 square. |
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Jul-22-11
| | chrisowen: <WinKing> <cro777> Why dongle am flag on per it salvationed I. Nut you champ any grace weave I knight rodger draw (;) off again looking for bit... 29.Rh1 Ba4 30.Rh2 Ra6 31.c3 Bd7 32.Rh3 Ra2+ 33.Ke1 Ra1+ 34.Ke2 Ra2+ 35.Kf1 Ra7 36.Kg2 Ra1 37.Kh2 Ra2 38.Kg2 Rb2 39.Bh5 Rxh6 40.Rgg3 
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Jul-23-11
 | | capafan: In some games, it is easy to judge in hindsight alternatives that could have been played and resulting positions; however, there is a reason this variation is still a mystery. Both sides, it seems, have resources the chess engines do not fully understand. I dare say both teams could replay the game seeking not to overlook the same opportunities and yet not reach a better result. <chrisowen>Your commentary is reminiscent of an author I much admire and one whose one book in particular I have read (and reread) many times...James Joyce, "Finnegan's Wake". You both may share a common goal in your writing. |
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Jul-23-11
 | | Thanh Phan: <capafan:<chrisowen>Your commentary is reminiscent of an author I much admire and one whose one book in particular I have read (and reread) many times...James Joyce, "Finnegan's Wake". You both may share a common goal in your writing.> ~Thank you - My search engine had an outpouring of non-related content when search some lines from <chrisowen> during last challenge. |
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Jul-23-11
| | cro777: THE PUZZLE OF THE DAY - WHAT IS THE RATIONALE BEHIND 16.Rhb1?
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<16.Rhb1>
THE ANSWER
<imag>: "We may want to play 15.a3 to play <16.Rhb1> next... then <b4> is stopped for the moment (Black may still play it, but it is not very effective) and we may proceed with <h5/g4>. <cornflake>: " Then in some sequence of moves <h5,g4,Qe3,Nh4,and f4>. That's the general scheme of play but the move order depends on what black does. Eventually after breaking through kingside we bring the rooks back kingside". <David2009>: "16.Rhb1 is very defensive, and is well met by 16...Ne7. I once again propose <16.Nh2> intending <Bh5> followed by <Ng4>". EPILOGUE
<capafan>: "I am still trying to understand the rationale behind <16.Rhb1>" cro777: "Realizing you don't know is often as important as getting the answer". <capafan>: "I feel very "important" right now". |
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Jul-23-11
| | WinKing: I remember thinking the move <16.Rhb1> was an inaccuracy on white's part. Figured the rooks might be better placed on the kingside in support of the g & h pawn(s) advances. All the engines seemed to love it though. |
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Jul-23-11
| | blue wave: <capafan><THE PUZZLE OF THE DAY - WHAT IS THE RATIONALE BEHIND 16.Rhb1?> OK.
Here are some patzer thoughts.
b4 is coming too quickly for white.
Our king is at d2.
The exchange of pawns after b4 leaves our king exposed.
White needs some more time to advance the g and h pawns. |
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Jul-23-11
| | blue wave: <HOW WOULD BLACK PLAY AFTER <14.g4 and 15.g5>? I suppose black would play Qe7 still and Ke8? |
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Jul-23-11
| | chrisowen: <cro777><You both may share a common goal in your writing.> Why see it yaw slide now dont rook flash your eye b5 see? If you clean up sinced loaded f5 duck dropping f4 the kid? off n running cons tip I tried bleach this abismol defence white wagging his tail or e8 repent. In dr it esoteric at h5 bon santi
A gm na leaf it in caminos it's brow nt g3 h4 Ni
Again raps I veto f3 cry me safe gabonk you 40
yes dash me note in spirits e6 a breeze !? |
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Jul-23-11
| | blue wave: <capafan><THE PUZZLE OF THE DAY - WHAT IS THE RATIONALE BEHIND 16.Rhb1?> "FEAR" of b4 and losing. |
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Jul-24-11
| | blue wave: I think after the last team game where we played the RISKY g4 as white and lost. I was less inclined to take any risks. So in choosing between <Rhb1> and <g4> I went for what I felt was the safer option. I was in no mood for another lost game. So I think you could say that psychology played a part for me. I suppose in any series of games, previous loses can affect how one continues to play after the lose. |
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Jul-24-11
| | capafan: <cro777>
<capafan><THE PUZZLE OF THE DAY - WHAT IS THE RATIONALE BEHIND 16.Rhb1?> <16.g4 b4 17.h5 bxc3+ 18.Kxc3 > I would argue that the "threat" of b4 in most instances (e.g. <bluewave>'s response) in this line is more dangerous than its implementation. After Black plays b4 the threat no longer exists and despite the initial eval, White is less at risk not more. Black's Queen may be lured away from defense on the kingside but I am unsure (Q.E.D.) that Black can obtain anything of lasting value. As shown in the game, on a long-term basis, White cannot effectively prevent (only deter b4) by Rhb1 or any other move. This was my original point. Given this, either White chooses to be aggressive and pursue the kingside push or hope that Black makes an error...which in CC play is unlikely at a high level. |
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Jul-24-11
| | cro777: <blue wave> I agree completely with <capafan>. That was our original point. In the most recent (2010) CC game Thomas Rattinger (2509) played 16.Qe3. We also analyzed 16.g4 and 16.h5. In certain variations <Rhb1> might be necessary later if Black played <...b4>, for instance 16.h5 b4 17.axb4 axb4 18.Rhb1 |
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Jul-24-11
| | cro777: <chrisowen> In 2008, Chessgames helped a research study on chess aeshetics for University of Malaya (Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia). This survey and its results were further analyzed and used as part of a computational study of aesthetics in chess. The survey was intended to gauge human player aesthetic assessment of direct mate-in-3 combinations. Tournament games between expert players and compositions were used in varying mixtures. Respondents were asked to rate them between 1 and 10 based on beauty. Here is the combination with the highest estimated value (8.1):
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1.Qd6+ Kxd6 2.e8N+ Kd5 3.Nc7#
It is easy for computers to find the solution. But to conceive something like that, much more is needed. Your lines in this game might be candidates for a simillar research. |
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