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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 19 OF 240 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
May-01-12
 | | blue wave:  <Lost in Space> As requested, a run on 5...Bg4. (D08 Albin Counter Gambit Krenosz Variation).1. d4 d5 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 d4 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. Nbd2 Bg4 * 
click for larger viewhiarcs13.2 - selectivity[4]- style[active] - PV[2]
Depth : 27/2
Time : 08:54:03
Nodes : 71313027K
N/sec : 2225512
Score : +0.24
6. h3 Bxf3 7. Nxf3 Bb4 8. Bd2 Qe7 9. a3 Bxd2 10. Qxd2 O-O-O 11. e3 Nxe5 12. Nxd4 c5 13. Nf5 Qe6 14. Qc2 g6 15. Ng3 f5 16. Be2 h5 17. O-O h4 18. Nh1 Nf6 19. Rfd1 Ne4 20. b3 Kb8 Score : +0.28
6. a3 Qe7 7. h3 Bf5 8. g4 Bg6 9. Bg2 O-O-O 10. b4 h5 11. g5 Nxe5 I think these are some of the most decent evaluations I have seen by hiarcs at a pretty deep run. I'm tending to think I will vote 5...Bg4 next move. Even if white plays 5.g3 or 5.Nbd2. Will study this variation some more, but I'm with lost in space at this point. 1. I like the black Queen at e7.
2. I like castling Queenside and the pressure it creates on the d file. 3. I like to see whites LSB at g2 get exchanged off in some lines with our LSB. 4. I like to see blacks h-pawn used in attack.
But I must admit, I'm not familiar at all with this opening or this line so I need to study it some more. |
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May-01-12
 | | RandomVisitor: <blue wave> 5.Nbd2 Bg4 <Rybka4.1> [+0.55] d=29 6.a3 Qe7 7.h3 Bxf3 8.Nxf3 0-0-0 9.Bg5 f6 10.exf6 Nxf6 11.Qd3 h6 12.Bxf6 Qxf6 13.g3 g5 14.Bg2 Bg7 15.b4 Rhe8 16.0-0 Kb8 17.b5 Na5 18.Nd2 h5 19.Ne4 |
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May-01-12
 | | WinKing: The question <team> is can we draw with exotica*(not to be confused with erotica) type moves. I'm of the opinion the best we can do is draw unless we can provoke them into a position they may not be comfortable with. If they do play 5.Nbd2 then 5...Nh6* might fit the bill we are looking for. Has this move 'ever' been played at higher levels before? You could probably throw the book out the window if we played this. From looking at the analysis we have so far on this move it looks as good as anything else I've seen. *Definition of EXOTICA: things excitingly different or unusual |
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May-01-12
| | blue wave: RV - What does Rybka think of this line?
Score : +0.28
6. a3 Qe7 7. h3 Bf5 8. g4 Bg6 9. Bg2 O-O-O 10. b4 h5 11. g5 Nxe5 Try <7...Bf5>. |
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May-01-12
| | blue wave: <WinKing> I suppose if we play 5...Nh6 and draw at this level, it would be a major acheivement actually. |
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May-01-12
| | RandomVisitor: <WinKing><5...Nh6* might fit the bill we are looking for. Has this move 'ever' been played at higher levels before?>2 games from www.chesslab.com [Event "Split Open"]
[Site "Split CRO"]
[Date "2011.??.??"]
[White "Bergez,L"]
[Black "Bontempi,P"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2416"]
[BlackElo "2325"]
[ECO "D08"]
[Round "7.8"]
1. d4 d5 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 d4 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. Nbd2 Nh6 6. Nb3 Ng4 7. Nbxd4 Nxd4
8. Qxd4 Qxd4 9. Nxd4 Bb4+ 10. Bd2 Bxd2+ 11. Kxd2 Nxf2 12. Rg1 Ng4 13. Nb5 Kd8 14. Kc3 Bd7
15. e4 Bxb5 16. cxb5 Nxe5 17. Rd1+ Ke7 18. Rd5 f6 19. Bc4 Rad8 20. Rgd1 Ng4 21. R1d3 Ne5
22. R3d4 Rd7 23. Rxd7+ Nxd7 24. Bd5 Rb8 25. Ra4 Nb6 26. Rxa7 Nxd5+ 27. exd5 Kd6 28. Kd4 b6
29. Ra3 Re8 30. Rc3 Re2 31. Rc6+ Kd7 32. Kc3 Re3+ 33. Kd2 Re5 34. d6 Rd5+ 35. Kc3 Rxd6
36. Rxd6+ cxd6 37. a4 f5 38. b4 g5 39. a5 h5 40. a6 Kc7 41. h4 g4 42. Kd4 f4
43. Kd3 d5 44. Kd2 d4 0-1
[Event "48th XtraCon TCh-DEN 2009-10"]
[Site "Denmark DEN"]
[Date "2009.??.??"]
[White "Lund,S"]
[Black "Hjorth,T"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2411"]
[BlackElo "2165"]
[ECO "D08"]
[Round "3"]
1. d4 d5 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 d4 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. Nbd2 Nh6 6. Nb3 Ng4 7. Nbxd4 Nxd4
8. Qxd4 Bb4+ 9. Bd2 Qxd4 10. Nxd4 Bxd2+ 11. Kxd2 Nxf2 12. Rg1 Be6 13. h3 Ne4+ 14. Ke3 Ng3
15. Kf4 Nxf1 16. Nxe6 fxe6 17. Rgxf1 Rd8 18. Ke3 Rf8 19. Rf3 Rd7 20. Raf1 Rdf7 21. b4 Ke7
22. b5 Rf5 23. Rxf5 exf5 24. h4 Ke6 25. Rd1 h6 26. Rd5 g5 27. h5 Rg8 28. a4 g4
29. Rc5 Rg7 30. g3 Rd7 31. a5 b6 32. Rc6+ Kxe5 33. Rxh6 Rd1 34. a6 Rh1 35. Rh7 Rh3
36. Rxc7 f4+ 37. Kf2 Rh2+ 38. Kg1 fxg3 39. Rxa7 Kf4 40. Rf7+ Kg5 41. a7 1-0 |
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May-01-12
| | WinKing: <blue wave: <WinKing> I suppose if we play 5...Nh6 and draw at this level, it would be a major acheivement actually.> I'm kinda liking the move 5...Nh6 <blue wave> if 5.Nbd2 gets played. |
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May-01-12
| | WinKing: Ok thanks <RV> I will start looking the games over that you provioded. |
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| May-01-12 | | karpkasp:  <jepflast> After 5. Nbd2, I have tried to determine if 6. Nb3 is an adequate answer to several 5... black moves.
As you can see below, this approach is often correct even if Houdini sometimes disagrees :)5... Nh6 is rare, but playable.
Houdini plays 6. h3 (0.43/25) Qe7 (0.48/26)
I propose 6. Nb3!? Bb4+ (0.43/26) and Houdini gives 7. Bd2 Qe7 8. a3 Bxd2+ 9. Qxd2 0-0 10. Nbxd4 Nxe5 11. Nxe5 Qxe5 12. Nf3 Qh5 5... Qe7 is similar:
6. g3 (0.42/27) Nxe5 (new!) 7. Nxe5 Qxe5 8. Nf3 Qa5+ 9. Bd2 Qb6 10. Bg2 Nf6 (0.48/25)
Here, 6. Nb3?! doesn't give much to white: 6... Bg4 (0.12/23) After 5... Be7, Houdini plays 6. Nb3 (0.50/27)
After 5... g6, Houdini plays 6. Nb3 (0.56/28)
After 5... Bf5, Houdini plays 6. a3 (0.50/27)
6. Nb3 has been played before and seems to be correct: Houdini gives 6... Qe7 (0.54/25) After 5... a5, Houdini plays 6. a3 (0.50/26)
6. Nb3 is comparable to 6. a3: Houdini gives 6... Bb4+ (0.43/25) After 5... Be6, Houdini plays 6. g3 (0.50/26) transposing into the 5. g3 old main line.
6. Nb3 is apparently inferior to 6. g3: Houdini plays 6... Bb4+ (0.29/25) After 5... Bg4, Houdini plays 6. g3 (0.50/26) transposing into the 5. g3 old main line.
6. Nb3 is apparently inferior to 6. g3: Houdini plays 6... Qe7 (0.13/26) Unfortunately, my 6. Nb3 approach doesn't work after 5... f6 or 5... Bb4 :) |
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May-01-12
| | RandomVisitor: <blue wave>running that now... 7...Bh5 also looks good. There's usually a reason why Rybka plays something funny like 7...Bxf3, but sometimes it has to think a while to find it. |
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May-01-12
 | | YouRang: At this point, it would be almost funny if white *didn't* play 5.Nbd2. (I'm still expecting it though). |
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| May-01-12 | | karpkasp: <team> I hope my last post helps to understand why I prefer 5. Nbd2 to a3. 5. Nbd2 develops, protects c4 and f3 and gives us new options to answer any black 5... move.
Now, it's possible to play Nb3 attacking d4 or g3 developing the kingside (after 5... Bg4, 5... Be6 or 5... Qe7). My views on the Albin are simple: white should hold the pawn, capture d4 and let black capture e5.
That's why I'm happy with the "holding the pawn line" starting with 5. Nbd2 Nge7 6. a3 (or 5. a3 Nge7 6. Nbd2). Personally, I don't like the a3-b4 variations, even if the engines give an edge to white: 1) It gives the pawn back
2) White doesn't have a lead in development to justify this 3) I don't think that white can play a minority attack on the queenside.
Pc7 can be a target, but I don't see more. |
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May-01-12
 | | jepflast: <karpkasp> That's a good summary. What did you conclude... is 5. Nbd2 your choice? I am probably most worried about <5...Be6>. I do not like resorting to that kingside fianchetto to maintain our good evals--if for no other reason than I haven't studied any g3 lines! |
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May-01-12
| | jepflast: <karpkasp> Don't worry. I think we're still headed for 5...Nge7 <6. Nbd2> and the pawn-holding lines. Unless we find something really juicy in the 6.b4 stuff--and I'm still trying. |
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May-01-12
| | RandomVisitor: <blue wave>5.Nbd2 Bg4 6.a3 Qe7 7.h3 <Rybka4.1>
[+0.47] d=20 7...Bh5 8.Qa4 0-0-0 9.b4 Bxf3 10.Nxf3 Nxe5 11.Nxe5 Qxe5 12.Qxa7 d3 13.Ra2 Qc3+ 14.Bd2 Qxc4 15.Ra1 Qe4 16.Be3 dxe2 17.Bxe2 [+0.52] d=20 7...Bf5 8.b4 0-0-0 9.Bb2 Nxe5 10.Nxe5 Qxe5 11.Nb3 Qe4 12.Qd3 Qe5 13.Qd2 Qe4 14.Rd1 d3 15.e3 Be6 16.Qc1 Qxc4 17.Nd4 Qxc1 18.Rxc1 Bf5 19.Rd1 Be4 20.f3 |
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| May-01-12 | | karpkasp: <cro777> In your last post, I think that 7... Ncxe5 is better than 7... a5. Indeed, I like <Domdaniel>'s idea to play 9. Nbd2 in the 5. a3 6. b4 variation. Houdini replies with 9... c5 (0.18/26) 10 dxc6 Nxc6 11. Nb3 Qb6 (0.30/26). I'll explore it more deeply tomorrow. |
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May-01-12
| | RandomVisitor: In the above two games I posted, white makes a mistake on move 7 in each case, and black gets an equal game. Both are essentially useless. |
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May-01-12
 | | morfishine: 'Albin' kinda busy...what ru guys up to? |
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May-01-12
| | RandomVisitor: <morfishine><'Albin' kinda busy...what ru guys up to?>running computers to get ideas... |
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May-01-12
 | | cro777: <karpkasp: In your last post, I think that 7... Ncxe5 is better than 7... a5.
Indeed, I like <Domdaniel>'s idea to play 9. Nbd2 in the 5. a3 6. b4 variation.> The same position can be reached via <5.Nbd2> line IF Black...(as occurred in the game Melvin-Artium) In the German Superliga "our" move order was applied
1. d4 d5 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 d4 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. a3 Nge7 6. b4 Ng6 7. Bb2 a5 8. b5 Ncxe5 9.Nbd2 c5 10.bxc6 Nxc6 11.Nb3 Be6 |
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May-01-12
 | | hoodrobin: <Domdaniel: This game in the 5.a3 Queen exchange line -- Karpov vs Kasimdzhanov, 2006 -- worries me a little, simply because Karpov failed to win it.> It was a rapid game, apparently. |
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May-01-12
| | RandomVisitor: <blue wave>5.Nbd2 Bg4 6.a3 Qe7 7.h3 <Rybka4.1>
<[+0.50] d=22 7...Bf5> 8.b4 0-0-0 9.Bb2 Nxe5 10.Nxe5 Qxe5 11.Nb3 Qe4 12.Qd3 Qe5 13.Qd2 Qe4 14.Rd1 d3 15.e3 Be6 16.Nd4 Bxc4 17.Qc3 d2+ 18.Rxd2 Bxf1 19.Kxf1 c6 20.f3 |
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May-01-12
| | hoodrobin: <chrisowen: ...in chagrin...>
I'm afraid of it too. I don't understand too much but we must play a move. Maybe they are both not too committal, while g3 looks less promising. |
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May-01-12
 | | AylerKupp: Updated 5...Be7 assessment
IMO <Golden Executive> busted 5...Be7 after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 d4 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.Nbd2 Be7 6.Nb3 since Black has no way to defend the Pd4. Black will win the Pe5 in compensation but the resulting position leads to an early exchange of queens and at best a draw for Black. However, it may still be feasible if White plays 5.a3 since then Black has an extra tempo to get in 6...f6: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 d4 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.a3 Be7 6.Nbd2 f6. And Here's an updated summary of 4 engines' analysis of 5...Be7 after 5.a3 Be7 6.Nbd2 f6 7.exf6 Bxf6. Based on previous results, 7.exf6 was considered the top reply for White, so I restricted the analysis to start on White's 8th move. And I had to redo all the analyses because I earlier forgot to allow for castling for either side. Good grief, Charlie Brown! White's Critter Ivanhoe Komodo Spike
Move d=26 d=28 d=28 d=30 Avg
-------- -------- -------- ------- ------- -------
8.Qb3 [------] [------] [------] [+0.63] [+0.63]
8.Qa4 [------] [+0.43] [------] [+0.77] [+0.60]
8.b4 [+0.33] [+0.54] [+0.39] [+0.72] [+0.50]
8.g3 [+0.36] [+0.53] [+0.39] [+0.59] [+0.47]
8.Nb3 [+0.35] [------] [+0.41] [+0.66] [+0.47]
8.Qc2 [+0.38] [+0.45] [+0.46] [------] [+0.43]
8.h3 [------] [------] [+0.38] [------] [+0.38]
8.Ne4 [+0.21] [+0.33] [------] [------] [+0.27]
These are some of the lowest average evals I've seen for this 5...Be7 line. So, apparently, being able to castle benefits Black more than White, evaluation-wise. And, since I was somewhat rushed, I couldn't run the analyses as long as I would have liked to, or was able to run earlier. So, given the past trend (including this run) of the evals getting smaller the deeper the search, I suspect that the average evals would have been even lower. I'll post the detailed analysis as soon as I have a chance to review the lines, although I will only give my evaluation of the final position and a diagram, since I want to see how the 5.g3 Be7 6.Bg2 f6 7.exf6 Bxf6 lines turn out. But, based on this quick look, I think that we should consider 5...Be7 in response to 5.a3. |
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May-01-12
| | AylerKupp: <<morfishine>: 'Albin' kinda busy...what ru guys up to?> Beating my head against the wall trying to get 5...Be7 to work. It will feel so good when I stop! |
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