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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 45 OF 240 ·
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May-09-12
 | | RandomVisitor:  <blue wave>6...Qd7 7. Nbd2 h6 8. Bf4 g5 9. Bg3 g4 10. Nh4 Qd8 
click for larger view Rybka 4.1 x64:
[+0.66] d=23 11.Qb1 Be7 12.Nf5 Bg5 <13.e4> Bxf5 14.exf5 Qe7 15.Qc2 Nf6 16.0-0-0 Nh5 17.Qe4 Nxg3 18.hxg3 0-0-0 19.e6 fxe6 20.Qxg4 Bxd2+ 21.Rxd2 exf5 22.Qxf5+ Kb8 23.Bd3 Rhf8 24.Qh7 Qxh7 25.Bxh7 Na5 26.Kc2 |
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May-09-12
 | | Tabanus: <Rybka 4.1 x64: [+0.66] d=23 11.Qb1 Be7 12.Nf5 Bg5 <13.e4> Bxf5 14.exf5 Qe7 15.Qc2 Nf6 16.0-0-0 Nh5 17.Qe4 Nxg3 18.hxg3 0-0-0 19.e6 fxe6 20.Qxg4 Bxd2+ 21.Rxd2 exf5 22.Qxf5+ Kb8 23.Bd3 Rhf8 24.Qh7 Qxh7 25.Bxh7 Na5 26.Kc2> After 12...Bg5, Critter 1.4 24-ply (reposted)
+0.42 13.Nb3 Nge7 14.Nxe7 Qxe7 15.Qd3
+0.32 <13.e4> Bxf5 14.exf5 Qe7 15.Qc2 But as often before, Rybka may be right. |
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May-09-12
 | | whiteshark: <AylerKupp> Thanks for the latest update of the AT. It's a great tool!!! Could you check sheet "B06", Line no. 68 (Analysis ID 683), b6 should somehow be a black move. |
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May-09-12
| | whiteshark: I switchesd the board after <6...Qd7> and thought that <7.e4> shouldn't be a bad move. AT has only 'one' line (no. 108/109 - analysis ID 589/583) which went on <7...dxe3ep 8.Qe2 exf2+ 9.Qxf2 h6 10.Bd2 Bg7 ...> I think white can be happy after <9.Qxf2> and would like to see some other analysis/evals from starting from here: 
click for larger view |
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May-09-12
 | | plang: <Thanh Phan: <Tabanus: <RandomVisitor: <Rybka4.1> 6...Qd7 [+0.59] d=29 7.Nbd2 Bg7 8.Ne4> Why not 8...b6?>Tabanus: <Thanh Phan> Not my idea but <Golden Executive>'s Houdini 1.5 28-ply:
<9.e3 h6 10.Bf4 Bb7 11.Qc2 dxe3 12.fxe3 0-0-0 13.Be2> There was some discussion of this line yesterday - 13 Be2 looks very slow. I would think White could play 13 c5 at once - after 13..Kb8 14 cxb..axb 15 Bb5
I think our king is in for a violent siege. The Black set-up with a queenside fianchetto and castling is very easy to attack. |
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May-09-12
| | whiteshark: DJunior12.5 analysis after <6...Qd7 7.e4 dxe3ep 8.Qe2 exf2+ 9.Qxf2> 1) 9...h6 10.Be3 Bg7 11.Nbd2 b6 12.0–0–0 Bb7 13.Nb3 Qc8 14.Nbd4 Nge7 15.Bd3 0–0 16.h3 Nxd4 17.Nxd4 c5 18.Nb5 Bxe5 <0.66/21> 2) 9...Be7 <0.76/21> (needs some more moves) 3) 9...f6 10.exf6 Qe6+ 11.Qe2 h6 12.Bf4 Nxf6 13.Nc3 <0.86/21> 4) 9...f5 10.exf6 Qe6+ (as line 3)
5) 9...Bg7 10.Nc3 h6 11.Bd2 Nge7 12.0–0–0 0–0 13.Nb5 Rd8 <0.87/21> |
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May-09-12
 | | AylerKupp: Detailed Analysis after 6.Bg5 Be7 7.Bxe7 Ngxe7, Spike 1.4: Two additional sets of analyses of the 7.Bxe7 Ngxe7 line. Commentary and diagrams only for the first 2 lines due to time constraints. But the Nb1-d2, b2-b4 approach looks very good for White, although I'm not in favor of Black's ...Bg4 and ...Bxf3 approach. After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 d4 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.a3 g6 6.Bg5 Be7 7.Bxe7 Ngxe7
click for larger view1. [+1.13], d=33: 8.b4 0-0 9.Nbd2 a6 10.g3 Bg4 11.h3 Bxf3 12.Nxf3 Nf5 13.Bg2 Re8 14.g4 Ng7 15.Qd2 Ne6 16.0-0 g5 17.Rfe1 Nf4 18.Rad1 Qe7 19.Nxd4 Nxe5 20.Qc3 Nxg2 21.Kxg2 Rad8 22.Kf1 Qf6 23.Nf3 Nxg4 24.Qxf6 Nxf6 25.Nxg5 h6 26.Nf3
click for larger view(11...Bxf3) This is a bad exchange and only helps White in their slightly cramped position. IMO, when White has knights on f3 and d2, ...Bg4 and ...Bxf3 accomplish nothing. (17...Nf4) This maneuver weakens Black's king position and the knight sortie does nothing to preserve Black's strong point, the Albin Pd4. (26.Nf3) Definite advantage for White, a clear pawn up, no major structural pawn weaknesses, and a simplified position with no counter chances for Black. Not played by Spike in its usual imaginative way. 2. [+1.09], d=33: 8.Nbd2 0-0 9.b4 a6 10.g3 Bg4 11.h3 Bxf3 12.Nxf3 Nf5 13.Bg2 Re8 14.g4 Ng7 15.Qd2 Ne6 16.0-0 g5 17.Rfe1 Nf4 18.Rad1 Qe7 19.Nxd4 Nxe5 20.Qc3 Nxg2 21.Kxg2 Rad8 22.Nf5 Qf6 23.Qc1 h5 24.f3 a5 25.bxa5 Nc6 26.Rd5 hxg4 27.hxg4
click for larger view(27.hxg4) Starting out the same as Spikes PV #1 with transposition, it evolves along different lines. More material on the board and therefore theoretically more counter chances for Black, but White is 2 pawns up and other than his Re1 his pieces are in good squares. The last 3 lines without diagrams or commentary since, aside from the time constraints, they don't represent White's best play. 3. [+0.68], d=33: 8.Qb3 Nf5 9.Nbd2 Qe7 10.g4 Nh4 11.Nxh4 Qxh4 12.h3 0-0 13.Nf3 Qe7 14.0-0-0 Nxe5 15.Rxd4 Nc6 16.Rd2 a5 17.a4 Rd8 18.Bg2 Rxd2 19.Nxd2 Nd4 20.Qe3 Qxe3 21.fxe3 Nxe2+ 22.Kc2 Ng3 23.Rg1 h5 24.Bf3 h4 25.Rd1 Ra6 26.Nb3 4. [+0.50], d=33: 8.Qd3 Bg4 9.Nbd2 Qd7 10.g3 0-0-0 11.Bg2 Bf5 12.Qb3 h6 13.0-0 g5 14.Ne1 Ng6 15.Nd3 Bxd3 16.exd3 Rhe8 17.Rae1 Kb8 18.f4 gxf4 19.gxf4 Nh4 20.Ne4 Nxg2 21.Nc5 Qc8 22.Kxg2 Rg8+ 23.Kh1 b6 24.Ne4 Qh3 25.Qc2 Ne7 26.Nf6 5. [+0.49], d=33: 8.h3 0-0 9.b4 b6 10.Ra2 Bb7 11.b5 Na5 12.Qxd4 Qxd4 13.Nxd4 c5 14.Nf3 Nxc4 15.e4 Bxe4 16.Bxc4 Bxb1 17.Rd2 Bf5 18.0-0 a6 19.a4 axb5 20.Bxb5 Be6 21.Rd6 Rfb8 22.g4 h6 23.Nd2 Kf8 24.Rd1 h5 25.f3 hxg4 26.hxg4 |
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May-09-12
| | AylerKupp: Detailed Analysis after 6.Bg5 Be7 7.Bxe7 Ngxe7, Stockfish 2.2.2: Commentary and diagrams on the first 2 lines only, due to time constraints. After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 d4 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.a3 g6 6.Bg5 Be7 7.Bxe7 Ngxe7
click for larger view1. [+0.92], d=32: 8.Nbd2 0-0 9.b4 a6 10.Ne4 Bf5 11.Nc5 b6 12.Nb3 Qe8 13.h3 Rd8 14.Nbd2 f6 15.exf6 Rxf6 16.g4 Be6 17.Qc2 Rf8 18.Bg2 Qf7 19.0-0 Qf4 20.Rac1 Ne5 21.Nxe5 Qxe5 22.Qe4 Qxe4 23.Bxe4 h5 24.f3
click for larger view(11.Nc5) Interestingly, Stockfish goes in the opposite direction than Komodo; 11.Nc5 rather than 11.Nf6+. And, considering where the knight wound up, 10.Nb3 would have gotten the knight there much quicker. And a few moves later, the knight winds up where it started! Talk about a knight's tour. Stockfish must be having an off (k)night. :-) (25.f3) A proper eval, White is a clear pawn up.
2. [+0.84], d=32: 8.b4 g5 9.b5 g4 10.bxc6 gxf3 11.cxb7 Bxb7 12.gxf3 Bc6 13.Rg1 Ng6 14.f4 Nxf4 15.Rg4 Ne6 16.Nd2 Kf8 17.Qb1 Rb8 18.Qf5 Rg8 19.Bh3 Rxg4 20.Bxg4 Qg5 21.Qxg5 Nxg5 22.Bf5 Ke7 23.Rb1 Rxb1+ 24.Bxb1 h5 25.Nb3
click for larger view(11...Bc6) A strange move, blocking the c-pawn needed to support the Pd4. (25.Nh3) After 25...Ne6 26.Bf5 it's not clear how Black can avoid going 2 pawns down. The last 3 lines without diagrams or commentary since, aside from the time constraints, they don't represent White's best play. 3. [+0.52], d=32: 8.Qb3 0-0 9.Nbd2 Nf5 10.Ne4 Kg7 11.0-0-0 Nxe5 12.Nxe5 Re8 13.Nxf7 Kxf7 14.Nd2 c5 15.g3 Kg7 16.Re1 Rb8 17.e4 Bd7 18.Bd3 Nh6 19.f3 Qc7 20.Kb1 Bc6 21.Rd1 4. [+0.52], d=32: 8.h3 0-0 9.Nbd2 Nf5 10.Qb3 Re8 11.0-0-0 Nxe5 12.Nxe5 Rxe5 13.Nf3 Re8 14.e3 c5 15.g4 Nd6 16.exd4 cxd4 17.Nxd4 Bd7 18.Kb1 Ne4 19.Qc2 Qh4 20.Nf3 Qf6 21.Rxd7 Qxf3 22.Rg1 Rad8 23.Rxd8 Rxd8 5. [+0.56], d=32: 8.Qd3 Bg4 9.Nbd2 0-0 10.b4 Nf5 11.b5 Bxf3 12.Nxf3 |
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May-09-12
 | | Golden Executive:
<AylerKupp> Please check your e-mail. About <8..b6> <There was some discussion of this line yesterday - 13 Be2 looks very slow. I would think White could play 13 c5 at once - after 13..Kb8 14 cxb..axb 15 Bb5 I think our king is in for a violent siege. The Black set-up with a queenside fianchetto and castling is very easy to attack.> I think Black can hold after 13.c5 <Nge7> 14.cxb6 axb6 15.Bb5 g5 16.Bg3 Qd5 17.Nc3 Qc5: 
click for larger viewI will try some sliding at the position above. |
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May-09-12
| | AylerKupp: <Summary of my engines' analysis of the 6...Be7 8.Bxe7 Ngxe7 line>: After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 d4 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.a3 g6 6.Bg5 Be7 7.Bxe7 Ngxe7
click for larger viewBlack's Critter Ivanhoe Komodo Spike Stockfish
Move d=29 d=30 d=27 d=26 d=33 Avg
------ ------- ------- ------ ------ ------ -----
8.b4 +0.52 +0.68 +0.67 +1.13 +0.84 +0.77
8.Nbd2 +0.56 +0.62 +0.61 +1.09 +0.92 +0.76
8.Qb3 ------ +0.22 ------ +0.68 +0.52 +0.47
8.Qd3 +0.38 +0.32 +0.27 +0.50 +0.56 +0.41
8.h3 +0.25 +0.32 +0.32 +0.49 +0.52 +0.38
8.g3 ------ ------ +0.32 ------ ------ +0.32
8.h4 +0.27 ------ ------ ------ ------ +0.27
Clearly either 8.b4 or 8.Nbd2 are White's best moves, with the objective of expanding on the q-side. I think that Black does better if he focuses on maintaining the Pd4 at the expense of not recapturing the gambit pawn on Pe5 since he can seldom do the latter without giving up the Pd4. And Black must play aggressively on the k-side, although it's not a certainty that White will castle there. A timely ...f6, not tried by any of the engines, may provide Black's best chance, opening up the f-file. And, if White's Pe5 is removed, Black has substantial pressure on the e-file. So I think that there's a lot of play in this line if some of the engines' recommendations are not followed. Now THAT's a big statement! But the engines don't have strategic vision, and I think that the horizon effect applies here. Therefore, in spite of the more favorable evaluation of 7...Qd7, I've voted for 7...Be7, hoping (but not assured!) of 7.Bxe7, and follow the plan of preserving our Pd4 rather than exchanging it for White's Pe5. Having rolled the dice once with 6...g6, it's time to roll it again and hope we don't roll snake eyes. |
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May-09-12
 | | blue wave: <RV> Thanks. I had a look. And hiarcs agrees with Rybka. 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 d4 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. a3 g6 6. Bg5 Qd7 7. Nbd2 h6 8. Bf4
g5 9. Bg3 g4 10. Nh4 Qd8 11. Qb1 Be7 12. Nf5 Bg5 13. e4 Bxf5 14. exf5 Qe7 15.
Qc2 Nf6 16. O-O-O Nh5 17. Qe4 Nxg3 18. hxg3 O-O-O 19. e6 fxe6 20. Qxg4 * 
click for larger viewhiarcs13.2
Score : +0.83
Depth : 21/4
Time : 00:07:20
Nodes : 1065056K
N/sec : 2416462
20... Rhg8 21. Qh3 Bxd2 22. Rxd2
So.. have to say this seems a dead end. +0.83 |
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May-09-12
| | blue wave: <GE> i did some work last night on this line.
I tried <13...Kb8> and <13...f5> which were interesting. If I try your move of <13...Nge7> then I get the following. 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 d4 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. a3 g6 6. Bg5 Qd7 7. Nbd2 Bg7 8. Ne4
b6 9. e3 h6 10. Bf4 Bb7 11. Qc2 dxe3 12. fxe3 O-O-O 13. c5 Nge7 14. cxb6 axb6 * 
click for larger viewhiarcs13.2
Score : +0.84
Depth : 21/6
Time : 00:06:00
Nodes : 782535374
N/sec : 2168589
15. Rc1 g5 16. Bg3 Kb8 17. h3 Rc8 18. Kf2 Rhd8 19. Nf6 Bxf6 20. exf6 |
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May-09-12
 | | WinKing: As <whiteshark> has been known to say... "6...Qd7 & that's it"! ;)
Voted <6...Qd7> |
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May-09-12
 | | YouRang: Well, I don't know for sure which move is best, but my natural preference was 6...Be7 which seemed better than blocking our LSB. I spent much of yesterday sliding through the 6...Be7 line, and it seems fairly solid for black: <6...Be7 7.Bxe7 Qxe7 8.Nxd4 Nxe5 9.e3 Nf6 10.Be2 O-O 11.Nc3>
click for larger view
Houdini_20_x64 @ 28 ply:
+0.39 11...Rd8 12.Qb3 Bg4 13.0-0 c5 14.Nf3 Nxf3+
+0.50 11...b6 12.0-0 Bb7 13.Qc2 Rfd8 14.Rad1 c5
+0.54 11...Bg4 12.Bxg4 Nfxg4 13.h3 Nf6 14.Qe2 Rad8
+0.62 11...c5 12.Ndb5 Rd8 13.Nd5 Nxd5 14.cxd5 a6
+0.63 11...Be6 12.Nxe6 Qxe6 13.Nd5 Rfd8 14.Nxf6+
+0.63 11...Bd7 12.0-0 c5 13.Nf3 Rad8 14.Qc2 Bc6
+0.63 11...c6 12.0-0 Re8 13.h3 Be6 14.Nxe6 Qxe6
With likely continuation:
<11...Rd8 12.Qb3 Bg4 13.0-0 c5 14.Nf3>
click for larger view
Black seems to have at least two reasonable choices: 14...Nxf3 or 14...Bxf3 to break up the defense around white's king. |
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May-09-12
 | | Chessgames Challenge:
6...Qd7
FINAL VOTE TALLY:
| 6...Qd7 |
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14 | votes |
(51.9%) |
| 6...Be7 |
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13 | votes |
(48.1%) |
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total # of votes: 27
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May-09-12
| | Chessgames Challenge: 
6...Qd7
click for larger view
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May-09-12
| | RandomVisitor: I think it was 14-13 favoring Be7 a minute or so before voting closed. |
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May-09-12
| | whiteshark: <total # of votes: 27> Our team has 58 players now, so that we have a 46.6% turnout on move no.6. |
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May-09-12
| | YouRang: Two one-vote squeakers in a row! |
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| May-09-12 | | frogbert: in order not to run into some surprise, i'd appreciate if someone had a second look at 7. Nbd2 <h6> 8. Bf4 g5 9. Bg3 g4 10. Nh4 here i have 10... <Qd8> as primary candidate (idea Be7 to bother our Nh4) - but black has other moves. we need to check for possible improvements. assuming 10... Qd8 there's a choice between
A) 11. <h3> h5 12. Qb1
and
B) 11. <Qb1> directly the difference is subtle, but A removes some later options for black, but adds a new one - Bh6-lines. in either case i think these lines could need some fresh eyes in case i've missed something. |
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May-09-12
| | AylerKupp: Now I'm almost certain that the voting will be more exciting than the game itself. :-) |
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May-09-12
| | whiteshark: I get pms, positionwise spea. |
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May-09-12
 | | hms123: <frogbert> I will take a look. |
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May-09-12
| | YouRang: In the event that we see 7.Nbd2, the likely continuation may be <7.Nbd2 Bg7 8.Ne4>
click for larger view
It looks like Rybka is expecting 8...h6 (28 ply) or 8...Nxe5 (29 ply) here. Houdini seems to like 8...b6, for which Rybka's 23-ply says: <[+0.58] d=23 8...b6 9.Qc2 Nxe5 10.Nxe5 Bxe5 11.e3 Bb7 12.0-0-0 h6 13.exd4 hxg5 14.dxe5> I'll slide down this line a bit with Houdini. |
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| May-09-12 | | frogbert: also, i might add, if there's any nastyness in the forcing h6-lines that we haven't yet found, today and tomorrow is our last chance to avoid it by switching to the playable but so far less attractive Bf4-lines. just want to make sure that we're not leading the team astray by recommending Nbd2! |
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