< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
|Apr-08-08|| ||percyblakeney: <I believe that: Keres, Botvinnik, Reshevsky, Fine, Kashdan, Euwe, Flohr, and of course Capablanca would have defeated Bogo in a match play. Arguably, you can throw the meteor known as Sultan Khan onto this list as well. Even an old Lasker would have beaten Bogo in a match>|
Don't forget Spielmann, he won a ten game match against Bogo in 1932. :-)
|Apr-08-08|| ||keypusher: <It's pretty amazing that the chess world allowed Alekhine to play another match against Bogo. In no particular order, I believe that: Keres, Botvinnik, Reshevsky, Fine, Kashdan, Euwe, Flohr, and of course Capablanca would have defeated Bogo in a match play. Arguably, you can throw the meteor known as Sultan Khan onto this list as well.>|
Well, the chess world had no say in the matter in those pre-FIDE days. Leaving aside the merits of your match predictions, I think Fine and Reshevsky were not yet well-known outside of America (of course Reshevsky had been a famous child prodigy, but hadn't done much yet as an adult), and Keres wasn't known at all. Botvinnik had done well in Soviet events and drawn a match with Flohr, but had done relatively poorly at Hastings, his one exposure to the West at that point. I don't think Kashdan or Sultan Khan were ever considered world championship timber, and Lasker was inactive and not really a WC candidate anyway. So the world wasn't awash in qualified challengers. Not that any of this excuses this match.
|Apr-08-08|| ||keypusher: <percy blakeney><Don't forget Spielmann, he won a ten game match against Bogo in 1932. :-)>|
That brings up a question. One of my favorite measures for how good a chess master is from after 1900 through the early 30s is how well he did against the big three: Lasker, Capablanca and Alekhine.
It's a tough test. Bogoljubov had horrible scores against all three. Nimzowitsch had terrible scores against Alekhine and Capablanca. Rubinstein did OK against Capablanca and Lasker, but not Alekhine. Maroczy did badly against all three. Vidmar had negative scores against all three, though not dreadful ones. But Spielmann all but held his own: +2-4=11 against Alekhine, +2-2=8 against Capablanca, +0-1=4 against Lasker.
But as far as I can tell, Spielmann was never seriously considered as a challenger for the world title. Does anyone know why?
|Apr-08-08|| ||Petrosianic: I don't know why specifically, but I'd guess that (for whatever reason) he never seriously pursued it. Either he didn't think enough of his chances to try to get the necessary funding (I've never heard any stories of his trying and failing), or he didn't want the aggravation of the whole process.
When he beat Bogo in 1932, chessmetrics shows him as the world #11. Plus, he was 48 years old at the time. Maybe the odds just weren't worth the effort.|
|Apr-08-08|| ||Petrosianic: <Leaving aside the merits of your match predictions, I think Fine and Reshevsky were not yet well-known outside of America (of course Reshevsky had been a famous child prodigy, but hadn't done much yet as an adult), and Keres wasn't known at all.>|
Yeah, the "New Generation" wasn't quite there yet in 1934. By 1938 they were, in force.
But in 1934, Fine was only 19 years old. Keres and Reshevsky weren't even close. Botvinnik was fairly good by then, but not quite Top 10 material, and only 22 years old.
Kashdan might have made a good challenger. He was at his peak in the early 30's. This was Flohr's best time, too.
|Apr-08-08|| ||RookFile: Yes, I'm not saying that some of these guys should have played Alekhine. I'm just saying they would have beaten Bogo.|
|Apr-08-08|| ||slomarko: <Arguably, you can throw the meteor known as Sultan Khan onto this list as well.> RookFile trolling as usual.|
|Apr-08-08|| ||percyblakeney: <But as far as I can tell, Spielmann was never seriously considered as a challenger for the world title. Does anyone know why?>|
He probably didn't have enough money, and maybe he lacked a just a little bit result wise even if he had some very impressive tournament wins, like Semmering 1926, ahead of Alekhine.
I read somewhere that the list of players that had an even score with Capablanca, after having won more than one game against him, is very short. It looks like this:
|Apr-08-08|| ||Petrosianic: <I read somewhere that the list of players that had an even score with Capablanca, after having won more than one game against him, is very short. It looks like this:|
I guess that's true, the way you stated it: "after having won MORE than one game". But several people had even scores against him based on more than one game played, such as: Keres +1-0=5, Botvinnik +1-1=5, Reshevsky +1-1=4, and Fine +0-0=5.
And the list of people who won more than one game from Capa (with or without breaking even) is pretty darn short: Lasker, Alekhine, Marshall, Spielmann... hmmm, is that it?
|Apr-08-08|| ||RookFile: Juan Corzo is worth a mention.|
|Apr-08-08|| ||percyblakeney: On the Spielmann page it is also mentioned that he played a training match against Euwe in 1935. Spielmann scored +4 -2 =4, so in their latest matches before playing Alekhine, the latter's challengers both lost to Spielmann...|
|Apr-08-08|| ||keypusher: <But several people had even scores against him based on more than one game played, such as: Keres +1-0=5, Botvinnik +1-1=5, Reshevsky +1-1=4, and Fine +0-0=5.> |
Yes, but all of those games are 1935 or later, aren't they? Not to denigrate the players -- the mid-30s generation was the strongest to come along since I don't know when. But they were playing a diminished Capablanca. That's one reason Spielmann's score impressed me so much.
|Apr-08-08|| ||RookFile: It's true that Capa had lost a step. It gives you an indication of what his strength was at his peak when you think of a second gear Capa playing somebody like Botvinnik even.|
|Apr-08-08|| ||Petrosianic: Yes, it's certainly something to be proud of, and I have to confess, a Capablanca-Spielmann match might have had some interest, just because Capa beat other wild attacking players (like Marshall, Bogo and Janowski) handily, but this one he didn't.|
If I could rewrite history, I'd schedule a Capablanca-Spielmann match in 1919, in place of that Capablanca-Kostic massacre that was actually played.
|Oct-30-08|| ||mjmorri: I believe the New York tournament of 1927 was thought of as a kind of candidates tournament for the right to play Capablanca.|
Alekhine could have used this approach in selecting an opponent. Offer the winner (or runner-up in case Alekhine won) of a major tournament the right to arrange a match.
There probably would have been more interest in funding such a match.
|Oct-30-08|| ||Karpova: <mjmorri: I believe the New York tournament of 1927 was thought of as a kind of candidates tournament for the right to play Capablanca.>|
No, it wasn't.
|Oct-30-08|| ||Petrosianic: <No, it wasn't.>
You're right, it wasn't. The Capablanca-Alekhine match was already signed and sealed before New York 1927 began, and would have happened regardless of how Alekhine fared in that tournament.
Of course it would have been a little embarrassing if anyone other than Capablanca had outscored him, but still, it was not in any way, shape or form a Candidates Tournament. Neither was AVRO.
|Oct-30-08|| ||mjmorri: <Petrosianic><Karpova>|
My source came from this site.
I guess I should have check further.
Sorry for the misinformation.
|Mar-30-10|| ||thegoodanarchist: <keypusher:
But as far as I can tell, Spielmann was never seriously considered as a challenger for the world title. Does anyone know why?>
According to Seirawan and Silman in "Winning Chess Tactics":
"Reuben Fine once wrote that (Rudolph) Spielmann's main concern in life, apart from chess, was to accumulate enough money to buy limitless quantities of <beer>!"
So your answer is, Spielmann kept drinking away the prize money!
|Aug-12-11|| ||AVRO38: <I'm not saying that some of these guys should have played Alekhine. I'm just saying they would have beaten Bogo.>|
What you seem to forget is that Bogoljubov played two matches against Euwe for the FIDE championship and won both. He also won the 1925 Moscow super-tournament ahead of Capablanca and Lasker, as well as the super tournament in Bad Kissingen (1928) ahead of Capablanca, Euwe, Rubinstein, and Nimzowitsch, was second only to Alekhine at the Bled 1931 tournament, ahead of Flohr, Kashdan, and Nimzowitsch, and was a two time USSR champion. He also has a world #1 ranking by Chessmatrics.
The myth that Bogoljubov was some kind of weak player is nonsense. His performance in the 1934 match was as good or better than Euwe in 1937, or Tal in 1961.
|Jan-15-12|| ||jessicafischerqueen: <CG Administration>|
It is more than a little irritating that nowadays your <Cree> reference links shove a gigantic <AOL> ad in your face. To get to the actual web page, I have to go manually through Google.
In that vein, it's also irritating that you give this passage in your intro without mentioning which game <Alekhine> was referring to:
"The match was regarded as little more than an exhibition by all, including Alekhine himself, who said such things as this in My Best Games of Chess, 1924-1937:
This game - more than any other - proves how useless from the sporting point of view was the arrangement of this second match, and at the same time explains my indifferent play on a number of occasions.1 "
I happen to have the book in question, so I'm going to find the answer, but I shouldn't have to be looking for it manually if you bring it up in your introduction. Sloppy writing on your part, at best.
When you eventually take over the many historical games collections constructed by members, I really hope you choose to give them admin rights over their introductions, which, frankly, are in the majority of cases vastly superior to the introductions in your <World Chess Championships> series.
Are you aware that User: Penguincw has mirrored the function of your <World Chess Championships> series with more detailed, better written, yet still fairly concise introductions?: Penguincw's Game Collections
I think you should consider replacing your introductions with his- they are clearly better.
|Jan-15-12|| ||jessicafischerqueen: Courtesy of <chancho>:|
<The match was regarded as little more than a giant exhibition by all, including Alekhine himself, who said such things as this in My Best Games of Chess, 1924-1937, in his notes to the <<<4th>>> game:>
|Mar-10-13|| ||Diademas: The introduction to this page is very missleading.
Suggesting that players like Keres, Reshevsky and Fine were serious contenders for the WC-title in 1934 is just laughable.
Keres was 18 at the time and had not played outside Estonia. Reshevsky was just comming back from a long break due to his education and played soly in the US. Fine had not played outside US at the time either.
Chessmetrics (yes I know...) has Botvinnik listed as #11 in the April 1934 list. Fine is #32 and Reshevsky and Keres are not even listed in the top 100.
|Jan-12-14|| ||whiteshark: It should be noted that Hans Michael Frank (back then Minister of Justice for Bavaria) was also the driving/supporting force (together with Culture Minister Hans Schemm) behind the realisation of this match in Germany.|
Related sources/documents can be found in C.N. 4820: http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/...
|Jan-12-14|| ||Petrosianic: <The introduction to this page is very missleading.
Suggesting that players like Keres, Reshevsky and Fine were serious contenders for the WC-title in 1934 is just laughable.>|
The intro says that these players "had just begun to arrive on the scene", which is completely true. But the next sentence does imply that they were actual contenders at this time, which of course, they weren't. There was only one reasonable challenger in 1934, and that was Capablanca, whom Alekhine was ducking. According to Euwe, Alekhine played the matches with himself and Bogo because he needed the money, which is why he could complain about Bogo being there but play him anyway.
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