|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 4 OF 4 ·
Later Kibitzing > |
Jul-24-08
 |
| nimh: An outcome of a game is a determined by your and your opponent's playing quality, not yours alone. It seems as if Keres' opponents happened to play much better than against Botvinnik. What I wanted to show with this analysis is that Keres was as good as botvinnik in that tournament, and it's the mysterious breakdown in games with Mr Rigid hard-liner that possibly left him without the title. Whether poor result against Botvinnik was due to threats by soviets or he was just unable to cope with Botvinnik's playing style is another matter. I'm unable to answer that. |
 |
Jul-24-08
 |
| Gypsy: <keypusher> Pachman's opinion on the Keres-Botvinnik matter (Spring, 1979, Lone Pine) was that of all the theories, the one that Keres felt such an obligation to Botvinnik that he was not even able to play him full on, was somewhat more likely than others; though all of it was very strange. As for Alekhine (and this not necessarily in context of Keres), Pachman felt that AAA was remarkably not-stressed, in fact, was happy and jovial during the two War tournaments in Prague. It was a stark contrast with practically all others: Saemish, Foltys, Keres, ... You just must not have challenged any of Alekhine chess ideas. Then he immediately puffed up. |
 |
| Jul-24-08 |
| ughaibu: Nimh: you say everyone at the tournament played better against Keres than against Botvinnik? presumably you include Euwe and Reshevsky, so it wasn't just Keres who inexplicably played below his normal level against Botvinnik, it was everyone, including non-Soviets. |
 |
Jul-24-08
 |
| nimh: I haven't said <everyone>. |
 |
| Jul-24-08 |
| ughaibu: Okay, you say "Keres' opponents", there were only three, who do you mean? |
 |
Jul-24-08
 |
| nimh: I also haven't said it as a verified and undisputable fact.
When to players play roughly equally and yet have different scores, it must have to do with different levels of their opponents' playing quality.
The difference in playing quality of Keres against Botvinnik and other players is suspiciously large. <presumably you include Euwe and Reshevsky, so it wasn't just Keres who inexplicably played below his normal level against Botvinnik>
This requires further analysis and more time, I don't feel like doing it.
The controversy has arisen only in connection with Keres and Botvinnik. |
 |
| Jul-24-08 |
| ughaibu: As far as I can see you said that Keres generally played better than Botvinnik against the remaining three. When Keypusher pointed out that the scores dont support your contention, you explained this by Keres' opponents playing better against him than they did against Botvinnik. If this is your position, at least three of Botvinnik's four opponents, including at least one non-Soviet, played below their best against him. In light of this Keres poor performance appears typical and in no manner suspicious. |
 |
Jul-24-08
 |
| nimh: Keres' performance against Botvinnik is lower than against others by quite a big margin which is sufficient to cast suspicions on it. In non-Botvinnik games Keres scored only 0.5 points worse than Botvin in non-Keres games. This indicates that quality differences cannot be quite high. |
 |
Jul-24-08
 |
| plang: <Keres' performance against Botvinnik is lower than against others by quite a big margin which is sufficient to cast suspicions on it.> Nonsense; Fischer scored 0-4 against Tal in the 1959 Candidates Match. It is the law of small numbers. Results do not always match the statistically expected outcomes. |
 |
Jul-25-08
 |
| euripides: <nimh> One of the other computer studies found that Botvinnik was the weakest world champion or somthing like that. I think this shows something about the nature of Botvinnik's strength. Gligoric said something like 'Botvinnik looked armed to the teeth against unarmed opposition'. Botvinnik's strength lay in strategic understanding, supported by deep opening preparation. The effect of this is not necessarily a high score on Rybka - it can be to make the opponents play more weakly as they are put in positions they understand less well. Not only Keres but Euwe and Smyslov sometimes looked quite helpless against Botvinnik in 1948. |
 |
Jul-25-08
 |
| percyblakeney: It has nothing to do with chess, Botvinnik and the claims about other players being stopped from winning the title and so on, but there have been some similar discussions on the subject in badminton lately. The Chinese badminton coach admitted in Chinese television a few months ago that one of the players was told to let her opponent win in the Olympic Games in 2004. <According to Yongbo, the Chinese team has nothing to be ashamed of as China has a history of favouring certain players when two of them meet at international events. “It shows our patriotism and in fact I’m proud of it,” Yongbo told China Central Television’s sports channel.> Some Dr. Huan Xiong in Ireland states that <the interests of nation and the state always come first when social members make their decisions. This ideology is also reflected in sport. To guarantee the final success of the games, the team manager has the right to decide which player is going to play and win for next matches> http://playthegame.org/News/Up_To_D... The similarities between badminton in China today and Soviet chess more than 50 years ago aren't many. At the same time I wouldn't be totally surprised if there had existed a reasoning along the same lines in chess, after all the 1940s were tough times in the Soviet Union. Preferring a politically correct Russian World Champion rather than an Estonian that had been playing in tournaments in Germany during the war doesn't sound strange. But that doesn't have to mean that anything decisive really was done to accomplish this. |
 |
| Jul-25-08 |
| RookFile: <plang: Nonsense; Fischer scored 0-4 against Tal in the 1959 Candidates Match. It is the law of small numbers. Results do not always match the statistically expected outcomes. > Not a good comparison. Keres was considered world championship caliber in 1948. Fischer wasn't considered world championship caliber in 1959. In other words, a betting man might have picked Keres to post a winning record against Botvinnik, but would have been quite unlikely to have expected a young Fischer to beat a Tal in his prime. |
 |
Jul-25-08
 |
| nimh: <Fischer scored 0-4 against Tal in the 1959 Candidates Match. It is the law of small numbers. Results do not always match the statistically expected outcomes.> Rather it reflects that Fischer wasn't as good as Tal in 1959. <One of the other computer studies found that Botvinnik was the weakest world champion or somthing like that. I think this shows something about the nature of Botvinnik's strength. > Crafty ranked him #12 out of 14. However, Rybka is a lot better, I analyse more deeply and she surely will estimate Botvinnik's playing strength more objectively. |
 |
Jul-25-08
 |
| keypusher: <Gypsy: <keypusher> Pachman's opinion on the Keres-Botvinnik matter (Spring, 1979, Lone Pine) was that of all the theories, the one that Keres felt such an obligation to Botvinnik that he was not even able to play him full on, was somewhat more likely than others; though all of it was very strange. As for Alekhine (and this not necessarily in context of Keres), Pachman felt that AAA was remarkably not-stressed, in fact, was happy and jovial during the two War tournaments in Prague. It was a stark contrast with practically all others: Saemish, Foltys, Keres, ... You just must not have challenged any of Alekhine chess ideas. Then he immediately puffed up.> Those both sound like quite good points. And, as so often, I have overstated matters; Keres himself told someone in British chess that he was told "If Botvinnik fails to become champion it must not be because of you." How's that for pressure? To be honest, I am surprised that Keres seemed to be rehabilitated so quickly. I wouldn't have been surprised if the Soviets had shot him out of hand. Not only did that not happen, Keres competed in and won the XV Soviet championship in 1947. It's enough to make me believe that Botvinnik really did intervene for him. But I suppose what really transpired for Keres between 1945 and 1948 will never be known for certain. |
 |
Jul-25-08
 |
| keypusher: <<plang: Nonsense; Fischer scored 0-4 against Tal in the 1959 Candidates Match. It is the law of small numbers. Results do not always match the statistically expected outcomes. > Not a good comparison. Keres was considered world championship caliber in 1948. Fischer wasn't considered world championship caliber in 1959. > Perhaps a better comparison would be Keres himself scoring 3-1 against Tal in the 1959 Candidates. Also, to repeat myself, Keres always scored badly against against Botvinnik, though not quite as badly as he did in 1948. |
 |
Jul-25-08
 |
| plang: <Not a good comparison. Keres was considered world championship caliber in 1948. Fischer wasn't considered world championship caliber in 1959. In other words, a betting man might have picked Keres to post a winning record against Botvinnik, but would have been quite unlikely to have expected a young Fischer to beat a Tal in his prime.> As great as Keres was he was never Botvinnik's equal. He never played a WC match. He was always just good enough to get close to qualifying. I suppose a contempory comparison would be Ivanchuk. |
 |
| Jul-25-08 |
| RookFile: In theory, Keres qualified to play Alekhine in 1938 by virtue of winning AVRO, but then WW II happenned. (Reshevsky reported that at the tournament, Alekhine quibbled on whether he'd play the winner.) |
 |
Jul-25-08
 |
| chancho: Fine suggested that he and Keres (due to their AVRO result) be named co champions after Alekhine died. Having two world champs at the same time, not a very good idea. |
 |
| Mar-24-09 |
| WhiteRook48: well, Botvinnik's champion and probably won't want co champions! |
 |
| Aug-18-09 |
| WhiteRook48: the Soviets forced Keres to lose this tournament |
 |
Aug-18-09
 |
| parisattack: <WhiteRook48: the Soviets forced Keres to lose this tournament> Has this been definately proven? I was under the impression the evidence was still somewhat speculative and nothing conclusive had been brought to the table. |
 |
| Aug-19-09 |
| WhiteRook48: why? was Alekhine afraid Capa would win AVRO? |
 |
| Oct-04-09 |
| theagenbiteofinwit: <the Soviets forced Keres to lose this tournament> Absurd. It would be in the U.S.S.R's best interest for Keres to finish ahead of Reshevsky. "Punishing" him by making him lose to Botvinnik would only hurt the Soviet image overall. If the Soviets were so interested in manipulating matches for political purposes, Tal would never have beaten Botvinnik in the first place, since he was probably the most apolitical Soviet that ever breathed, and every match Botvinnik played was symbolic. |
 |
| Oct-04-09 |
| AnalyzeThis: Folks like Reshevsky, who played in the tournament, imply that the Russian goal was not that Keres lose, but that a Russian win. The idea is that once Botivinnik got to the front, the other Russian helped him stay there. People only remember the winner. |
 |
| Oct-04-09 |
| theagenbiteofinwit: <The idea is that once Botivinnik got to the front, the other Russian helped him stay there. > If that were the case, Smyslov and Botvinnik wouldn't have drawn so much. Smyslov would have taken more losses to ensure Botvinnik stayed on top. Botvinnik was at his peak in the 40's. Any Keres conspiracy theory necessarily discounts Botvinnik's ability. <People only remember the winner.> Not in this tournament, people still even remember the guy who declined to play :) |
 |
 |
|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 4 OF 4 ·
Later Kibitzing > |