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|Jul-31-14|| ||perfidious: Indeed Fischer was virulently anti-Semitic, despite <lamont>'s comments elsewhere. This was the one misstep from Spassky that we know of--I believe that should be taken into onsideration before assessing his action.|
Great a player as Fischer was, there was little or nothing admirable about the man.
|Jul-31-14|| ||HeMateMe: Fischer must have known (or suspected) that he himself was half or 100% Jewish.|
I've always thought that Fischer was so deeply insecure and paranoid that it wasn't so much jewish people he disliked, but that he needed something to rail against, any sort of crutch to convince himself that any problems he had were the fault of another group of people. Hitler did the same thing in the 1920s and '30s, convincing the masses of unemployed Germans that it was the Jews of Europle who created the Depression.
Fischer also hated the Soviet Union and the United States government. I'm inclined to believe he disliked any group or institution that could have some sort of controlling effect on his life. Thus he wasn't a racist so much as he was paranoid, to a debilitating level.
|Jul-31-14|| ||AylerKupp: <<diceman> Cracks me up when folks talk of the Russians as "individuals">|
And it cracks me up (or it would, if it wasn't so simple minded) when folks fail to recognize that, yes, the Russians (and the Ukrainians, and the Latvians, and the Finns, and all the other nationalities that made up the Soviet Union at the time) WERE individuals. Sure, they were inhabitants of a totalitarian state and they were subject to harsh measures if they did not toe the Communist party line. But that just constrained their behavior, not their thoughts. Spassky eventually emigrated to France and Korchnoi showed great courage leaving his family behind when he sought political asylum in Holland. Hardly the actions of non-individuals.
Then again, some people have very simplistic notions of how the world really is and fail to see things in other than black and white, confusing reality with wishful thinking: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vF9T...
|Jul-31-14|| ||perfidious: <AK: Then again, some people have very simplistic notions of how the world really is and fail to see things in other than black and white, confusing reality with wishful thinking>|
|Aug-01-14|| ||Ke2: <Howard> Houdini found a bust for Fischer's analysis on page 2 of M60MG. It wouldn't be pretty.|
|Aug-01-14|| ||Ke2: Wow this "Pawn Sacrifice" move looks good. Premieres in Toronto in September. Fischer is played by Toby McGuire (Spiderman), Spassky by Liev Schreiber, with such a cast it might actually be a chess-themed blockbuster.|
|Aug-01-14|| ||HeMateMe: It will be in the $5 dvd bin in October. Still, I'll watch it. The chessers will have to watch it. |
Perhaps the chess film with the widest appeal in recent years was the documentary about Kasparov and Deep Blue. Casual chess fans know who Kasparov is, and tech people were curious about the computer software and hardware used.
I would guess that less than one in ten people on the street could tell you who Bobby Fischer was. Not good of you are doing a biopic.
|Aug-01-14|| ||diceman: <AylerKupp: <<diceman> Cracks me up when folks talk of the Russians as "individuals">
And it cracks me up (or it would, if it wasn't so simple minded) when folks fail to recognize that, yes, the Russians (and the Ukrainians, and the Latvians, and the Finns, and all the other nationalities that made up the Soviet Union at the time) WERE individuals. Sure, they were inhabitants of a totalitarian state and they were subject to harsh measures if they did not toe the Communist party line. But that just constrained their behavior, not their thoughts. Spassky eventually emigrated to France and Korchnoi showed great courage leaving his family behind when he sought political asylum in Holland. Hardly the actions of non-individuals.>|
Easy Ayler, down boy.
You guys can sure connect some dots.
Do you think this:
<Soviet officials took away Taimanov's salary and no longer allowed him to travel overseas.>
means I thought Taimanov was for it?
Don't you think someone who embraces freedom over tyranny knows what an individual is?
...it doesn't change the fact that handcuffs and gags hamper your match negotiation abilities.
Folks say things like Spassky was nice
to agree to Game 3.
He probably had little to do with it.
The USSR wanted it.
Down 2 games and still never having beaten Spassky they probably thought they had him.
Everything I've heard about Karpov seems to indicate he wanted to play Fischer more than the USSR did.
...but the USSR was burned by Bobby once, and didn't want to contemplate
(at least that's my theory)
|Aug-01-14|| ||diceman: <AylerKupp:
the Russians (and the Ukrainians, and the Latvians, and the Finns, and all the other nationalities that made up the Soviet Union at the time) WERE individuals. Sure, they were inhabitants>
For the record I've met and spoken to Spassky several times.
He's a really, really, nice guy.
Calm, soft spoken, jovial.
After actually meeting him, I don't think he could have ever defeated Fischer.
Kasparov in his prime is probably the only modern player who could have taken Fischer on.
(psychology would be GK's biggest obstacle)
|Aug-01-14|| ||MissScarlett: <He said it was a mistake. He meant to put it there, then reconsidered and realized it was a dumb move. He didn't deny that he had actually signed it.>|
He said it was a tactical mistake. He didn't say he disagreed with the contents of the letter. As for the contents of Talmudic literature, modern liberal sensibilities would rather not go there.
|Aug-01-14|| ||MissScarlett: <Fischer must have known (or suspected) that he himself was half or 100% Jewish.>|
He may not have been entirely consistent in views, but I think Fischer primarily thought of Jewishness in ideological, not racial
|Aug-01-14|| ||Petrosianic: That's the way he judged whether he himself was Jewish, but it's not the way he judged whether other people were.|
Heck, his mother and sister were Jewish both ways, and called themselves that, but Fischer insisted that they weren't, so go figure. The idea probably wasn't intended to withstand scrutiny.
|Aug-01-14|| ||MissScarlett: Not sure about the sister, but I don't think his mother identified as Jewish or conformed to any form of Jewish practice.|
|Aug-01-14|| ||Ke2: <HeHateMe>
The 5$ bin is the eventual fate of most any blockbuster.
But this could really be good. It might spark a mini Chess Boom, like "Rounders" did for poker. Plus the "Millionare" tournament is going on this fall.
But imagine if they made a movie out of Anand - Carlsen 2013... snore... or Anand - Gelfand LOL.
|Aug-01-14|| ||perfidious: <Ke2: (Pawn Sacrifice) might spark a mini Chess Boom, like "Rounders" did for poker.>|
The camera which enabled spectators to see players' hole cards at holdem and Omaha did far more to advance the popularity of poker among the hoi polloi than <Rounders>. Period.
|Aug-01-14|| ||Ke2: <perfidious> Of course. I also was forgetting Rounders was an older movie that got rediscovered in the poker boom. But movies can still make a big splash which is good for the game.|
|Aug-08-14|| ||Ke2: Does anyone know where to find the early version of the Pawn Sacrifice script that leaked?|
|Sep-11-14|| ||Garech: Amazing to think that Spassky blundered the exchange in three of the games of this World Championship!|
I can't remember the last time that happened recently...
|Sep-11-14|| ||Petrosianic: Which three games are you thinking of? Game 8, obviously, but what are the other two? Games 10 and 21 seemed to be deliberate sacrifices.|
|Sep-11-14|| ||Howard: Petrosianic is quite correct, in my view. In Games 10 and 21, Spassky gave up the exchange on purpose. In particular, in Game 21 Spassky apparently had a "go for broke" attitude, and he made a rather speculative exchange sacrifice....and we all know how that game turned out !|
|Sep-11-14|| ||perfidious: By that final game, Spassky must have felt a sense of frustration; he had spent the second half of the match throwing everything he could at his opponent and getting precisely nowhere after the eleventh game.|
|Sep-11-14|| ||Garech: Petrosianic: Yes, you're right about game 21, my mistake. I don't think he gave up the exchange intentionally in game 10, though. It looks like Fischer just saw deeper with the tactics.|
|Sep-17-14|| ||Mr 1100: I watched an episode of a television documentary programme on the BBC sometime in 2001 or 2002 (although the programme itself was probably produced sometime around 1999, as I understand). It was titled "Clash of the Titans" and the episode covered the 1972 match. You've heard the story numerous times before, and it's unlikely there's anything covered here that you don't already know, BUT STILL, I'd recommend watching it (if you haven't watched it before).|
The following are ten-minute segments of the programme:
http://tinyurl.com/mkrnmx8 [Part 1 (The first five minutes appear to be missing)]
http://tinyurl.com/n4d4plw [Part 2]
http://tinyurl.com/olwr3kr [Part 3]
http://tinyurl.com/m6y32k4 [Part 4]
There is very little technical discussion or analysis of the actual games, rather, the key events relevant to the match are presented in somewhat dramatic fashion, i.e. the story of the eccentric yet charismatic genius who single-handedly beat a cold, machine-like organisation, battling against their various underhanded manoeuvrings while he did so - as well as other manoeuvrings from his own team that were needed to persuade Fischer to play at all - all with suitably ominous-sounding and suspenseful background music. There are comments from Spassky himself, as well as archive footage of Fischer from television interviews in the 1970's, as well as several other significant figures from the time, including Larry Evans, Victor Baturinsky, Nikolai Krogius and Robert Byrne.
To me, the most memorable bit of the programme was when the interviewer said to Fischer: "You obviously consider yourself the best chess player in the world. Does it ever strike you that that's arrogant?" To which Fischer replied: "No... I mean, if it's true, it's not arrogant, y' know..." In fact, my vague memory of the quote was what even prompted me to go back and search for this episode. I'm very surprised that that quote didn't become more "famous" [it's at 00:47 in the second segment ("Part 2" above)].
Am particularly curious to know if there's anyone here who hasn't seen that episode before?
Would be interesting to see how "Pawn Sacrifice" compares to the documentary.
|Sep-18-14|| ||Joshka: <MissScarlett> <conformed to any form of jewish practice> Then why did he become a bar mitzvah?|
|Sep-21-14|| ||MissScarlett: Well, the evidence for that is only indirect:
I've no particular reason to doubt Benko's word, but I'm a little sceptical of such neat little stories.
<Pal Benko said that around 1959-1960 while they were at the Grossinger Hotel in the Catskill Mountains Bobby showed him a picture of Hitler and said, "He was a great man. There are too many Jews in chess." Pal asked, "What about you?" Bobby said nothing but gave him a dirty look.>
(Bobby Fischer: Triumph and Despair, pg.22)
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