< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 74 OF 74 ·
|Jul-01-13|| ||dagwood2005: "Sorry, no games at this time."
|Jul-01-13|| ||whiteshark: Who'd have thought that?|
|Jul-01-13|| ||SoUnwiseTheKnight B4: <So, who won?>
I think this guy won.
|Jul-01-13|| ||Everett: <The unlimited match favors the better player. This is the most important point, because in the limited game system the match outcome can turn on a very low number of wins, giving the weaker player a chance to "luck out." Also, in the limited game system the player who takes a game or two lead has an advantage out of all proportion. This creates an added element of chance. The player who wins the match should be the player who plays best over the long run, not the player who jumps off to an early lead.>|
Yeah, those early leads, especially in short matches, can create some landslide scores, or so I've heard.
|Jul-01-13|| ||RookFile: Glad you agree with Fischer.|
|Jul-01-13|| ||TheFocus: <Dredge Rivers>< So, who won?>|
I can't say, but the chess fans lost.
|Jul-01-13|| ||Everett: <RookFile: Glad you agree with Fischer.>|
... And with everyone else who lost by a lopsided score in a short match.
|Jul-01-13|| ||cwcarlson: The question no one (to my knowledge) has answered or even asked, is why Fischer didn't make the same demands in 1972 he made in 1975; did his concept of 'fairness' only arise after Karpov beat Korchnoi in 1974? It's unfortunate Korchnoi didn't win, since Bobby might actually have defended his title against an opponent he was confident of beating.|
|Jul-01-13|| ||Joshka: Bobby did speak about an unlimited games and draws not counting prior to the 1972 match. He wasn't the champ yet, so the Soviets held all the cards, and Bobby had to submit until he was actually awarded the World Chess Title. Once he became champion he felt, and rightly so, that he should be allowed to dictate the terms, as the Soviets had all these years they held the title. He held firm, "never give an inch" as they say. The world was robbed of a great match, and the rest is history. OBTW, Bobby finally got the match he wanted 20 years later, for a 10 win match, draws not counting.|
|Jul-01-13|| ||PhilFeeley: <Joshka: <Karpov stating "I don't know how Fischer feels about it, but I consider it a huge loss that he and I never played our match."> Amazing, never heard Bobby asked how he felt about it. If he ever did comment to somebody about it, that person is still not talking!>
<AylerKupp: <Joshka> He might have been asked but declined to answer. All we really know is that we don't know how Fischer felt about it. Too bad.>|
We know he visited the Polgars after he fled the U.S. I wish one of them would talk about it.
|Jul-02-13|| ||SoUnwiseTheKnight B4: Maybe they were too polite to ask anything he might not be happy to discuss. Probably goes for everyone who met Bobby after 1975. Leko, Anand, etc..|
|Jul-02-13|| ||AylerKupp: <<Joshka> OBTW, Bobby finally got the match he wanted 20 years later, for a 10 win match, draws not counting.>|
If that was all or the main thing that Fischer wanted he could have had that match in 1975 as well since FIDE agreed to his demand for a 10 win match, draws not counting, in March 1975 as indicated above. The sticky point, and the one that caused the match to not be played, was Fischer's insistence on retaining the title if the match reached a score of 9-9, and FIDE's refusal to agree to this condition.
I don't know how this would translate to 1992 in terms of Fischer finally getting "the match he wanted". Only Fischer considered himself the true world champion so there was no real "title" to retain. I haven't been able to find any reference as to whether the match would have been stopped if the score reached 9-9 or whether it would have continued until either Fischer or Spassky achieved 10 wins but I would assume that would have been the case.
So there was no way for Fischer in 1992 to get "the match he wanted" in 1975.
<<Joshka> Bobby had to submit until he was actually awarded the World Chess Title. Once he became champion he felt, and rightly so, that he should be allowed to dictate the terms, as the Soviets had all these years they held the title.>
As far as Fischer feeling like he should be able to dictate the match terms, well, he was certainly entitled to his opinion but he had no right to do so, any more than the Soviets had the right to do so prior to 1975. The right to establish the match terms was FIDE's, and solely FIDE's. Of course, as the reigning world champion Fischer had more influence on the match terms in 1975 than he did as the challenger in 1972, but that doesn't mean he had the right to dictate the terms. If he had, then FIDE would not have had the authority to strip him of the title when he chose not to defend it.
|Jul-02-13|| ||Joshka: Well this has been written about over and over, Bobby believed, and rightly so I may add, IMHO, that the winner of the match needed to win by TWO POINTS. so 9-9 Champ retains title. I believe this was also in place during the 1992 match, although, unless we find it written in the match regulations we are only guessing. The chess world lost a great player, and many years of great games not being played. Boxing scores very much the same, if you want to beat the champ, you have to really whip him. Not just barely have a slight advantage. Tennis, ect. but all this has been said before thru out these pages. The reason we have big paydays now in chess, is because of Bobby. Better playing conditions, ect. Lot of folks laugh and say he was unreasonable, ect. as Spassky said, Bobby was our first Union Stewart!|
|Jul-02-13|| ||Paraconti: Fischer, despite all his tantrums and eccentricity, was always fair and proper in chess. His demands were not for his own benefit but for the game, and would have set the fairest and most proper manner for a challenger to win the chess crown.|
|Jul-02-13|| ||AylerKupp: <Joshka> I also believe that FIDE should have agreed to the 9-9 clause and I have said so before. There was a precedent (in case that makes any difference) in the much earlier Steinitz-Gunsberg WC match for unlimited length matches with draws not counting, that the challenger needed to win by 2 points, and that the champion would retain his title in the case of a tie match. And several WC matches, both before and after 1975, were of unlimited length, draws not counting, with the winner being the first to win X games. And there is also plenty of precedence in other sports for the winner needing to win by 2 points, regardless of how the points are scored, although we all need to remember that chess is not necessarily the same as other sports.|
I also think that it is equally sad for the chess world that Fischer kept insisting on the 9-9 clause. Would there have been any doubt as to who was the (slightly) better player if Fischer had beaten Karpov 10-9, regardless of the actual number of games played? Likewise if Karpov had beaten Fischer by the same score. I think not. And Fischer's concern that a fluke error would unjustly determine the match results doesn't seem to hold much water, given the length of the match and the number of wins needed to win the match. That concern might have had some justification even in an unlimited length match if the number of wins needed to win the match was small; 1, 2, and perhaps 3, but certainly not 10. Did Fischer think that he was capable of 9 fluke errors in one match? If that were to happen then, frankly, the wouldn't deserve to be world champion.
An item that is seldom discussed is that under Fischer's proposed 1975 match conditions in case of a 9-9 tie score the champion would retain the title, but he wouldn't win the match, and the prize money would be split evenly. You may consider the champion retaining his title in case of a 9-9 tie score as equivalent of "winning" the match but that is no more technically accurate than Botvinnik "winning" his WC matches against Bronstein in 1951 and against Smyslov in 1954, Kasparov "winning" his WC match against Karpov in 1987, or Kramnik "winning" his WC match against Leko in 2004.
So the conditions in 1992 were different than in 1975 since, other than in Fischer's mind, there was no "title" involved. So Fischer retaining his, what?, in case of the match reaching a 9-9 score doesn't seem to make much sense to me as a match condition, although making sense is certainly not a prerequisite of match conditions; match conditions are whatever you negotiate.
|Jul-02-13|| ||AylerKupp: <Paracoti> That's utter nonsense. In interview after interview Fischer repeatedly said that the reason that he made so many demands was for his benefit, and for his benefit alone, and specifically for financial gain. He was certainly entitled to do so, but he never expressed any interest, or at least he didn't say so, in doing things for the "benefit of the game". |
And as far as Fischer being "fair and proper" in chess that certainly depends on what one thinks "fair and proper" is, and that is such a subjective area that it could be debated interminably, so I am not about to start such a discussion.
|Jul-02-13|| ||RookFile: Actually, Fischer never said he was doing things solely for his benefit, but thanks for playing.|
|Jul-02-13|| ||offramp: Fischer was definitely following the rules of one of Steinitz's matches. Steinitz was one of Fischer's heroes. |
What was odd is that a 1975 match would never have reached 8-8 or 9-9.
It would've been roughly 10-5 to one player or the other.
|Jul-03-13|| ||Everett: <First of all, I'll make a tour of the whole world, giving exhibitions. I'll charge unprecedented prices. I'll set new standards. I'll make them pay thousands. Then I'll come home on a luxury liner. First-class. I'll have a tuxedo made for me in England to wear to dinner. When I come home I'll write a couple chess books and start to reorganize the whole game. I'll have my own club. The Bobby Fischer ... uh, the Robert J. Fischer Chess Club. It'll be class. Tournaments in full dress. No bums in there. You're gonna have to be over eighteen to get in, unless like you have special permission because you have like special talent. It'll be in a part of the city that's still decent, like the Upper East Side. And I'll hold big international tournaments in my club with big cash prizes. And I'm going to kick all the millionaires out of chess unless they kick in more money. Then I'll buy a car so I don't have to take the subway any more. That subway makes me sick. It'll be a Mercedes-Benz. Better, a Rolls Royce, one of those fifty-thousand-dollar custom jobs, made to my own measure. Maybe I'll buy one of those jets they advertise for businessmen. And a yacht. Flynn had a yacht. Then I'll have some more suits made. I'd like to be one of the Ten Best-dressed Men. That would really be something. I read that Duke Snyder made the list. Then I'll build me a house. I don't know where but it won't be in Greenwich Village. They're all dirty, filthy animals down there. Maybe I'll build it in Hong Kong. Everybody who's been there says it's great. Art Linkletter said so on the radio. And they've got suits there, beauties, for only twenty dollars. Or maybe I'll build it in Beverly Hills. The people there are sort of square, but like the climate is nice and it's close to Vegas, Mexico, Hawaii, and those places. I got strong ideas about my house. I'm going to hire the best architect and have him build it in the shape of a rook. Yeah, that's for me. Class. Spiral staircases, parapets, everything. I want to live the rest of my life in a house built exactly like a rook. (on what he'd do when he won the world championship)>|
|Jul-03-13|| ||harrylime: I love this page because it's an irresistible magnet for ALL the Fischer 'haters' on this site .. |
Fischer's only opponent back then was himself... end of.
|Jul-03-13|| ||Everett: < harrylime: I love this page because it's an irresistible magnet for ALL the Fischer 'haters' on this site ..
Fischer's only opponent back then was himself... end of.> |
Oh, he didn't play any games back then?
Fischer's story and life are fascinating, yet I dislike some kibitzer's attempts to lie about his life and legacy. He, like anyone, deserves better than fanboyism and haters. The real Fischer is great enough. No need to lie about it, nor ignore the warts.
|Jul-03-13|| ||harrylime: ^^
The 'warts' are all very well known as you indeed know ..
Bobby's only opponent was himself.
|Jul-03-13|| ||Everett: < harrylime: ^^
The 'warts' are all very well known as you indeed know ..
Bobby's only opponent was himself.>
Quite dramatic, that last line! I wonder who's ego he was crushing, who he was making "squirm" for all those years. Himself?
Maybe you are right. In this case, it seems, after 1972, he lost that match.
|Jul-05-13|| ||optimal play: <<<<Chess title>|
AMSTERDAM, Monday (AAP-Reuter). — >
America's Bobby Fischer would defend his world chess title against Soviet challenger Anatoly Karpov in Manila next June, the International Chess Federation said today. The Philippines Government offered $A3,800,000 last month in prize money if the match was staged in Manila. Mr Karpov's choice of venue has not yet been announced.>
- The Canberra Times (ACT) issue Tuesday 4 February 1975>
|Sep-05-13|| ||offramp: A first-to-10-wins match would definitely have taken a long time. I seem to remember Fischer thinking that after 3 months there might have to be a break. |
For a start, both men were very hard to beat. Karpov lost 1 game in 1973, 3 games in 1974 (2 to Viktor Korchnoi) and, in the year when the F-K match was supposed to take place, just the one game - to Ulf Andersson.
In Fischer's great run of 1970-72 he lost 6 games while playing against the best players in the world.
Karpov-Korchnoi Candidates Match (1974) ended up 3-2 to Karpov after 24 games. So the F-K match would certainly be longer than that.
I think that owing to rustiness on Fischer's part, combined with strong opening preparation from Karpov and Karpov's habitual way of starting matches off well, I'd say that Karpov would take an early lead. If that happened I would expect Fischer to abandon the match for some reason.
If he continued I'd expect two long series of draws. Fischer would end the match strongly, possibly winning something like 4 or 5 wins out of 6 or 7 games.
The match would be 60-64 games and Fischer would win 10-6. The match would last 5 months.
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 74 OF 74 ·