< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 4 ·
|Oct-05-08|| ||Woody Wood Pusher: The first 'K' was too hot for Anand to handle, the second 'K' was too cold...but Kramnik is just right to be taken in one short gulp! |
See you in the losers lounge DRAWNIK!
|Oct-05-08|| ||square dance: do you spend a lot of time in the losers lounge, woody?|
|Oct-05-08|| ||acirce: <But what do you make of the whole 'zionist enemy' statement?>|
On specific request by FIDE when this <alleged> statement was reported by AP and then picked up by media everywhere, the Libyans officially denied that there had ever been a statement to the effect of Israelis being excluded. Makropoulos rightly asked the rhetorical question if they should have cancelled the World Championship just because of some rumour that spread on the Internet. A lot of other things could be said, definitely, but apart from this rumour that's contradicted by other facts I know of no evidence for the "Libya banned the Israeli players from participating" accusation. (Even less for what you initially said, <Jews> rather than Israelis.)
Note that the statement was supposed to have been made at a time when invitations to the Israelis had indeed already been sent out (thereby making the statement absurd). Wikipedia's own source states this, and among other things refers to http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/...
This alone should have made critical readers suspect there was something wrong with the picture.
|Oct-05-08|| ||slomarko: acirce why do you hate the israeles? i find reading your posts a bit disgusting.|
|Oct-05-08|| ||brankat: I can't find anything "anti-Israeli" in the above post by <acirce>. Nor is there anything hateful in there.|
|Oct-06-08|| ||slomarko: then you are blind.|
|Oct-06-08|| ||Pyke: <slomarko: then you are blind.>|
Could you please state the specific part of Acirce's post that is offending you?
For I am afraid, I am blind as well.
|Oct-06-08|| ||metatron2: <brankat> <Pyke>,|
You probably know that <acirce> likes to express his true love to Israel and Jews in his forum every now and then, by comparing Jews with Nazis,
supporting nuclear weapons for Iran, stating that Israel is the worst terror country on earth, and stuff like that.
In view of the above, I think we can read his last post as another (subtle) affection towards Israel:
The Libyans so nicely invited Israelis to participate, but the bad guys from Israel just wanted to ban the world championship there of course.
It is well known around the chess world of course, that Libyans disallowed Israelis participation and not the other way around.
|Oct-06-08|| ||slomarko: <Pyke> it is obvious that the situation between Israel and the arabic states is how shall we put it, lets say very tense. now for the Isrealis to participate in that world championship they would to need get some guarantees from the Libyans for they safety to play there. of course they didn't ban them but they didn't put any effort to reassure them either which considering the situation was necessary. now <acirce> knows these things very well but instead he paints the whole thing as if the situation is completely normal and Israelis refused to play for no reason.|
|Oct-06-08|| ||Akavall: <acirce> simply pointed out facts; it's funny how it provoked such angry responses.|
|Oct-06-08|| ||Petrosianic: Funny in what way?
That the statement is "absurd" is, of course, an opinion rather than a fact. The implication that because the statement is absurd, that therefore it was not made, is also an opinion rather than a fact. It's not a hateful opinion, granted, but neither is it a statement of fact.
That the Libyans deny making the statement now, is a factual statement.
|Oct-06-08|| ||Akavall: <Muammar Gadhafi's son, Saadi, has invited the Israeli chess team to Libya to participate in World Chess Championships this summer.|
The international competition will take place between June 18-July 13 in Malta and Libya.
Gadhafi issued his statement following extensive talks with the heads of the World Chess Federation (FIDE). Entry permits will be issued to anyone wishing to participate in the world championships. Israel is considered particularly strong is chess, and thus the FIDE chiefs insisted that its team be allowed to participate in the games in Tripoli.
Spokesman for the Israel Chess Federation, Yerech Tal, said in response that "the association is in constant contact with the Israeli Foreign Ministry and the decision on whether to accept the Libyan invitation will be made following consultations with Israeli security bodies and the players themselves."
Among the Israeli players who may travel to Tripoli are Emil Sutovsky, Ilya Smirin and Boris Gelfand. >
According to this (Israeli newspaper) Israelis were invited to Libya.
|Oct-06-08|| ||slomarko: this pasage is particulary interesting: <Israel is considered particularly strong is chess, and thus the FIDE chiefs insisted that its team be allowed to participate in the games in Tripoli.>
question: why did the FIDE chiefs need to insist that the Israeli team be allowed to participe? surely you don't have to 'insist' for something which is already a given.|
|Oct-06-08|| ||acirce: <<acirce> simply pointed out facts; it's funny how it provoked such angry responses.>|
For some reason that's practically bound to happen when the subject involves Israel.
My personal opinions about Israel are of course 100% irrelevant for the issue of whether Israelis were invited to the Tripoli WCh. That is even more off-topic than we already are, talking about the 2004 WCh on the 1998 WCh page.
I have no desire to start talking politics at this moment anyway, but just in case it's necessary I wish to make it clear that I am only responsible for what I personally have said and not what certain weird people say that I have said..
|Oct-06-08|| ||Pyke: <Slomarko> <Metatron2>: Ok, now I see where this is going: politics!|
Despite the itching to take part in this discussion, I'll have to decline.
This isn't the right place ...
|Oct-06-08|| ||slomarko: http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail...|
|Oct-07-08|| ||metatron2: <acirce: I wish to make it clear that I am only responsible for what I personally have said>|
Just for the record, here are a few relevant quotes from acrice's forum:
Nuclear power for Iran:
<Jul-13-08 acirce: I think it is their full right to develop nuclear weapons themselves as deterrence. There is zero evidence that this is what Iran is doing, but if they by any chance are, I think under the circumstances this would be good for peace and security in the region>
<Jul-18-08 acirce: there can be no doubt that the clear majority of Jews feel a general solidarity with Israel, [...] Not any of this is strange or unique, anyway. Germans living abroad were used by the Nazis.>
Israel Terror and Anti-Semitism:
<Jul-18-08 acirce: One of the world's worst terror states says for 60 years [...] and then they ask where all the anti-Semitism comes from>.
Those are not his most extreme quotes BTW.
<Pyke>, actually this was more about hatred against Israel and Anti-Semitism. However, I already realized before, that arguing against Anti-Semitism would be a futile argument since Anti-Semitism is not based on logic. So my post here was just an exception since the subject (indirectly) came up.
|Oct-07-08|| ||Pyke: <Metatron2> Actually I wanted to stay out of this, but ... |
On general terms, I think it should be possible to critisize the government and political actions of Israel without being called antisemitic.
Naturally, boundaries are reached, when people start talking about wipeing Israel off the map, etc. Such things are of course antisemitic and therefore not bearable.
But, one has to keep these two things - critisism and antisemitism - seperate.
Keeping this in mind, Acirce hardly qualifies as an Anti-semite: he "just" - though in a strong language - critisizes a certain government and its actions.
I think it would be a good thing to meassure Israel by the same standards as others are measured. Despite of its history.
For example: Do you know how many times the General Council of the United Nations found Israel guilty of violating Human Rights and International Law? It's far more than a hundred times, but nothing happens.
As long as this continues there won't be peace in the Middle East.
|Oct-07-08|| ||brankat: <Pyke> Well said.|
|Oct-07-08|| ||slomarko: the point is that <acirce> twisted the story to fit his agenda. again why did the FIDE chiefs need to <insist> that the Israeli team be allowed to participe in the Libya world championship? do you remember any other world championship where the FIDE chiefs had to <insist> that the Israeli team be allowed to participe? answer this simple question.|
|Oct-18-08|| ||Cactus: <slomarko> I disagreed with acirce, but you're taking it way too far. It's true that Isreal is doing terrible things. Acirce is right. As Obama said "No one is suffering more than the palistinian people" and he's right.|
|Oct-18-08|| ||slomarko: <It's true that Isreal is doing terrible things.> its Israel and i disagree. sure Israel made some mistakes but saying that he's doing terrible things is hate speech.|
<As Obama said "No one is suffering more than the palistinian people" and he's right.> how the hell would he know?
|Nov-02-08|| ||VaselineTopLove: <<As Obama said "No one is suffering more than the palistinian people" and he's right.>>|
Actually Obama clarified this point on TV when he said that what he meant by the above quote is that the Palestinians are suffering at the hands of their own people - Suicide bombers/Islamic extremists, corrupt officials etc.
|Nov-02-08|| ||VaselineTopLove: The outcome of this match was a sad one - Anand losing in rapid out of fatigue. Had Anand won this, I'm sure we would have seen a Kasparov-Anand re-unification match.|
|Nov-02-08|| ||Vishy but not Anand: That was how FIDE is dictated by Russians and Anand is not Russian.|
Karpov and his team were known to have so much influence in FIDE even way back Fischer's time. Karpov was very happy taking the crown of Fischer by forfeit.
Russians made sure that Karpov will never be like Spassky who was so gentleman who rather play chess win or loss for the crown. So they are more than happy for the opportunity to grab it back from Fischer by forfeit the better (equivalent to 100% no lose situation)
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