< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 40 OF 40 ·
|Nov-07-08|| ||metatron2: <frog: the point here, though, is at which point the players know or understand that this ending is favourable for white>|
Naka mentioned in his blog that Chuky offered a draw around that position we are talking about (move 19), so it is obvious that Naka understood that the ending is favorable for white already at that stage, and Chuky probably thought is was drawish but still with chances for both sides to create something out of it in case the game goes on.
<if he [Naka] steered into it, knowing in advance that he would be clearly better there, with small or no risk of losing, then "luck" isn't any significant part of the picture> according to his blog Naka rejected the draw exactly because of that, and looking at the game, I have a pretty good feeling that Naka saw that position before since the move series after his 12.Qa4 and until move 19 (Ne5, cd, Be5, Qd4, Bf6, Bd8, Bd5) was pretty straight forward. So my assumption is that he did steer into it based on previous experience (probably a blitz game ;) ).
<if chuky simply misevaluated the position and chose a wrong plan for no good reason, then naka won "simply" by understanding/playing the position better>
Judging from his draw offer and the flow of the game, I’d say that was the case. As I said, he might have been more careful against someone of his own level, and he probably would have understood the position better in a classical game, but you don’t really believe that Chuky thought that the 2700 level and a blitz monster Nakamura is such an easy target that he can press to a win against him in an inferior endgame, right?
<but neither of us can prove or disprove the other>
We can’t prove any of this of course, but I think that we can speculate with pretty high confidence here, based on what we can see.
<playing g5 and not moving his king towards his rooks and the queen side appear as a strange decision from ivanchuk. i find black's actual play in that game much more weird than i find white's play awesome>
In retrospect 24..g5 wasn’t a good plan, but during a (rapid) game, planning to play actively with g5, h5, and possibly f5, put the king on g6 (for example), along with control over the d file, doesn’t seem “strange” to me.
I do find the way Naka exploited the flaws in that plan to be “awesome”: Just see how within 9 moves black’s position turns from “nice & equal” to “very difficult”: with 27.b4! Naka puts his pawn on a black square, but deprives the important c5 square from black’s bishop provoking a further (probably critical) weakening from Chuky with 31.. a5. This along with his h3+g4 defused any counter play black was planning to have on the K side. And of course Naka wisely combined all that with his important King push towards the center.
So by move 33, black’s position was already very difficult, but it’s not at all easy to understand, and obviously very difficult to foresee moves before (especially in rapid).
The problem is that 33.. Bd6 seems to cover c5, e5 and g5 (indirectly through Bf4), but white can chase the bishop a way from there (with Rd1) without being afraid of further simplifications resulting from the rooks trade, thanks to his powerful Ne5(!)+Rc4 Maneuver, that does get him into a (not at all obvious) winning N vs B endgame, or wins a pawn with Nc6.
So to conclude: Chuky chose a (seemingly) logical active plan, and Naka played extremely accurately and resourcefully to refute it.
<i'm almost sure that with your fide 2300 understanding you still won't be able to beat me from the start of that ending, say after e4 was played, if i as black more or less play passively, setting up with kf8, g6, bg7, ke7 and possibly play f6 at some point if white plays both h4 and g4>
I agree that in retrospect, black would have probably done best going for the passive g6+Bg7 configuration that leaves him without weaknesses and deprives the important e5 square from the white knight. And indeed, it would have been very difficult for white to make a progress in that case, but I don’t think you can accuse Chuky for playing “strange” just because he chose a more active plan that only eventually turned out to be unsound.
BTW, based on your theory that it is impossible to compare rating from different pools, wouldn’t you say that my 18 yrs old rating is actually worthless today? :)
Actually, I have been practicing the “Naka chess school” lately, playing blitz on FICS, so it will be interesting to see how effective that was when I’ll get back to OTB play :) (it will surly happen one day, when I’ll have more time).
You know frog, I just thought that despite our similar age, chase-wise we are coming from completely different generations: You actually started playing after I retired from tournaments play, and you actually developed mainly during the computer-chess-era, while I played when chess programs were mainly used as a punching bags…
|Nov-07-08|| ||frogbert: <wouldn’t you say that my 18 yrs old rating is actually worthless today?>|
yeah - sorry. you are probably a complete patzer by now ;o)
<while I played when chess programs were mainly used as a punching bags…>
well, i played my first chess program (on my own computer) around 1984, and it was indeed rather weak. otherwise, i have probably spent more time analyzing games with the use of engines during my "learning years" than you did.
an im friend of mine and former club mate also once commented an interesting game of mine by (amongst others) saying that to him, it seemed like my play was possibly a little bit <too> concrete. by this, he meant that i could possibly profit from sometimes just playing "natural moves" without calculating very much, instead of always looking for deep/forced variations. it was not that he necessarily considered my intuition and positional judgement to be bad; more that i could rely on those things a bit more often.
since i've probably improved my understanding as much by thoroughly analysing (especially my own) games with engines, as by playing many games or analysing with stronger players, it wouldn't be strange if there can be found evidence of this in my style and play. but for a complete amateur like me, only playing 25-30 rated games per year in my most "active" years, i find it strange to think about myself as belonging to any kind of generation as a chess _player_. it's just a (sometimes time-consuming) hobby, after all. :o)
|Nov-11-08|| ||govtissue: Someone needs to change the homepage summary of this event since it says that Chucky won even though Naka did.|
|Nov-11-08|| ||Simonkaser: Yes really : <Cap d'Agde
Cap d'Agde, France
Oct 26-Nov 1
Nakamura lost to the winner, Vassily Ivanchuk, in the final.>
|Nov-11-08|| ||hedgeh0g: Just to add my feelings regarding the "American ignorance" debate on this page.|
I think the fact that Obama got elected would suggest that most Americans are sensible enough to realise that perhaps electing a President similar to Bush (albeit smarter) is not the best road to go down.
That being said, it did take arguably the greatest economic crisis since the Great Depression to change public opinion. Approval ratings and opinion polls as we know say f-all about the truth, proven by Bush getting re-elected in 2004 despite economic mismanagement and the controversial "War on Terror", among other things.
So if you're American and you consider the above, then maybe you'll see where the "stupid American" sentiments have been coming from for the past decade. Hopefully, people have come to their senses now that things have gone pear-shaped.
My two cents.
|Nov-13-08|| ||Riverbeast: <proven by Bush getting re-elected in 2004 despite economic mismanagement and the controversial "War on Terror", among other things>|
Whether or not Bush was legitimately elected in either 2000 or 2004, is still a matter of intense debate among those who are fully informed on both elections.
America could not have been the juggernaut of the world for all these generations, if all Americans (or even most) were stupid.
The fact that you people from other countries continually imply such a thing, only reveals your own ignorance.
|Nov-15-08|| ||acirce: The "stupid American" sentiments have always been stupid. It doesn't help much if they stem from the fact that they elect leaders you don't like. It's not like there is a real choice in US elections anyway. It's always between different shades of evil, usually almost indiscernible ones at that, including this year. (Yes, the "progressive" Obama cult irritates me to no end.)|
|Nov-17-08|| ||Riverbeast: <It's always between different shades of evil, usually almost indiscernible ones at that, including this year. (Yes, the "progressive" Obama cult irritates me to no end.)>|
Coming from an avowed supporter of Vladimir Putin, that's quite an indictment
|Nov-18-08|| ||hedgeh0g: <America could not have been the juggernaut of the world for all these generations, if all Americans (or even most) were stupid.
The fact that you people from other countries continually imply such a thing, only reveals your own ignorance.>|
I never said I personally believed that all Americans are stupid. I myself criticise people who say this, because a good proportion of Americans (including the vast majority that I've met) are friendly and intelligent people.
If you'd read my post properly instead of taking the usual strawman route, you'd realise I was merely pointing out where these sentiments could come from.
|Nov-18-08|| ||Riverbeast: <hedgehog> My apologies if I misread your intent....But it certainly sounded like you agreed with those sentiments. |
It's okay if you do, by the way....I think one of the biggest advantages Americans have enjoyed, is being underestimated! ;-)
|Nov-18-08|| ||metatron2: <Coming from an avowed supporter of Vladimir Putin>|
<acirce> is Putin's supporter <Riverbeast>? That should probably be the understatement of the year..
Why don't you try "Coming from an avowed supporter of al-Qaida and Hamas"? The guy is actually throwing parties in his forum every time one of those nice organizations succeeds in executing murderous terror actions.
I don't know, he claims to be supporting the weak all the time, but somehow adding one and one he ended up with three. I mean if supporting terror and consistently throwing hatred towards the US & Israel is his way of helping the weak, something must have gone wrong along his way.
|Nov-18-08|| ||Riverbeast: <metatron2> I understand why people dislike the policies of the governments of the US and Israel...I do also in many cases. |
But blaming the people for the policies of their government is a trap many people fall into....Not necessarily <acirce>, but others.
You know how much s**t I've had to take in other countries for being an American, just because of Bush?? And I didn't even vote for him!
I don't agree that Obama is "just another shade of evil"...The man hasn't even taken office yet...Can't we at least wait until he takes the oath of office and starts doing something, before we judge him?
And as far as the 'cult of Putin' goes, a dictator who opposes another dictator is still a dictator
|Nov-18-08|| ||Jim Bartle: "Can't we at least wait until he takes the oath of office and starts doing something, before we judge him?"|
No! Because he's already created the "Obama Recession."
(I've been watching Fox.)
|Nov-18-08|| ||rogge: <But blaming the people for the policies of their government is a trap many people fall into>|
The difference between New York and Oklahoma is BIG, I would imagine, and I'm sure I'd be happy living in the Northeast :)
|Nov-18-08|| ||Rolfo: Riverbeast, I think Obama will be great :)|
|Nov-18-08|| ||Riverbeast: <Rolfo> Let's hope!|
|Nov-18-08|| ||hedgeh0g: I think he will be great, too, but some people seem to think he's Jesus and I don't think Obama can work miracles.|
|Nov-18-08|| ||Riverbeast: He became president of the United States, with black skin, and the name Barack Hussein Obama.|
Not too long ago, that would have qualified as a miracle
|Nov-18-08|| ||whiskeyrebel: I've been to 45 U.S. States and lived in 3 time zones and I'd have to say that regional sterotyping is ugly and inaccurate. There are art/music communities in places you'd never imagine if you don't go out and take a look. Likewise, there are plenty of havens for small minded and brutal rubes in places like Washington State, New Jersey, etc. California isn't all sunshine and earth shoes; there are plenty of places there that are downright miserable. There is no such thing as a typical Texan or Floridian except in the movies. I know a lot of touring bands. They're always telling me how great it is to play in unpredictable places in the U.S. Many of them rave about Oklahoma incidentally.|
|Nov-18-08|| ||whiskeyrebel: One more thing; many U.S.folk who look outwardly like "small minded brutal rubes" (I perhaps fall into this category) are surprisingly intelligent, well read and cultured.|
|Nov-19-08|| ||rogge: Please don't get me wrong.I agree with you both, <rb> and <wr>. America is a great country, and is (Western) Europe's closest friend and ally (NATO). There are lots of places I'd like to see, from Key West to San Francisco (no, I'm straight).|
|Nov-19-08|| ||Rolfo: <Riverbeast: He became president of the United States, with black skin, and the name Barack Hussein Obama.|
Not too long ago, that would have qualified as a miracle>
A miracle it is. Thinking this over, may be Mr G. W.Bush feel "haunted" by this "name" similarity fact:) In addition, Biden resembles a little on a shorty for
"Bi.L.den" :) Now I better stop, this is cruel ;)
|Nov-19-08|| ||Jim Bartle: "One more thing; many U.S.folk who look outwardly like "small minded brutal rubes" (I perhaps fall into this category) are surprisingly intelligent, well read and cultured."|
I agree. Unfortunately, the opposite is also often true. Some people who look intelligent, well-read and cultured turn out to be small-minded rubes.
Here's an example, from Peru, but still...An American friend of mine works at a business school, among fairly educated, well-off people. He began to wear an Obama-Biden button, and a numbers of his co-workers asked him, "Are you crazy? You're going to vote for a "negro"?
|Nov-19-08|| ||Ziggurat: <Riverbeast> FWIW, the USA just gained an enormous amount of goodwill worldwide by electing Obama. I think you will have an easier time abroad during the next few years :-)|
|Dec-29-08|| ||perfidious: <Jim Bartle> There's one large difference betweeen what happened in Peru and the way things are here...........|
The racist attitudes are still present here in USA, but are normally openly displayed only online where I live, in New England.
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