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| Feb-01-10 | | percyblakeney: http://www.chessvibes.com/plaatjes/... |
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Feb-01-10
 | | SetNoEscapeOn: <Sure, there is no conspiracy, but it is clear that Anand is always very motivated against Kramnik, he did not try enough to win several games he had advantage, but played his best game against Kramnik since WC match.> Well he did try very hard to win a few other games, for example against Short and especially Tiviakov (I learned a lot from that game, btw). I don't think that the game with Kramnik reflected a change in attitude, only an improvement in Anand's prospects after the opening. If he had gotten such rich positions throughout the tournament, other players would have shared Kramnik's fate. |
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| Feb-01-10 | | Mr. Bojangles: <Well he did try very hard to win a few other games, for example against Short and especially Tiviakov (I learned a lot from that game, btw). I don't think that the game with Kramnik reflected a change in attitude, only an improvement in Anand's prospects after the opening. If he had gotten such rich positions throughout the tournament, other players would have shared Kramnik's fate.> You're very correct. |
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| Feb-01-10 | | Mr. Bojangles: In the first 10 games...
Kramnik was playing well (some even used "form of his life" lol), so said statistics but in fact he was shaky, 'unsolid' and error prone in many games. Anand was lackluster/mediocre, so said statistics but in fact he was solid and error free in most games. There are many, many examples of where stats don't and cannot tell the whole story or important parts of it, for this reason I am always weary of statistics-driven arguments and statistics in general. |
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| Feb-01-10 | | percyblakeney: Anand's Wijk results have been very good over the years, especially his 1996-2006 sequence is impressive, with shared second and +3 at worst: 1989: +2 (=1st)
1990: = (=7th)
1996: +3 (2nd)
1998: +4 (=1st)
1999: +6 (2nd)
2000: +3 (=2nd)
2001: +4 (2nd)
2003: +4 (1st)
2004: +4 (1st)
2005: +3 (2nd)
2006: +5 (=1st)
2007: +2 (5th)
2008: +2 (=3rd)
2010: +2 (=4th) |
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| Feb-01-10 | | polarmis: <Eyal: Yeah, the computer also indicates that it isn't really hopeless for White after 29...c4, as Kramnik seems to believe in the press conference, and that actually White can save himself as late as move 35 with Re1! instead of Nb6?? - and yet, indeed, a great game by Kramnik. Btw, that kind of "over-valuation" from Kramnik is hardly something uncommon.> Yep, agreed - I think it's arguably one of Kramnik's flaws to overestimate his positions. He's said in the past around the Kasparov match he got the idea that almost every position was defensible, which got him into some real trouble at times! But it's also a great virtue - much better than being pessimistic and missing saving/winning chances in games. In the Carlsen game he also said in the press conference that the computer would probably laugh at his ...Ne5, but in fact it was just slightly sub-optimal according according to Rybka. The same for ...c4. The psychological impact of the sacrifices and the pawn phalanx probably means that if Rybka saw no clear blunders then Kramnik's play was almost perfect from ...Ne5 onwards (even ...Be4 was perhaps better than ...Re4 given Carlsen's time trouble). |
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| Feb-01-10 | | anandrulez: Percy i think the worst is 1990 7th .
Good stats though as usual ! |
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| Feb-01-10 | | percyblakeney: <i think the worst is 1990 7th> Yes, I meant worst between 1996 and 2006, he had some very good years around then. In 1999-2001 Kasparov won, if he had been absent the same way he was absent from Dortmund Anand would have won Wijk six starts in a row (apart from 1989 and 2006). |
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| Feb-01-10 | | percyblakeney: The Tournament Director said something about starting to send out invitations in April, that he didn't want to mention any other names than Carlsen and Giri, but that he hoped to see some of the players that weren't invited this time. |
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Feb-01-10
 | | SetNoEscapeOn: <percyblakeney: <i think the worst is 1990 7th>
Yes, I meant worst between 1996 and 2006, he had some very good years around then. In 1999-2001 Kasparov won, if he had been absent the same way he was absent from Dortmund Anand would have won Wijk six starts in a row (apart from 1989 and 2006).> Just one note on that: the Dortmund tournaments in the 1990s were actually still very strong, and in fact seem to have been much stronger (relatively speaking) than the most recent editions. The fields did not have Kasparov, but they usually included Anand and many other players from the top 10. Still, I agree with the point about Anand's second place finishes. |
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| Feb-01-10 | | polarmis: <gus inn: My overall impression is that this Momokrousososos doesn´t "understand" Carlsens play as much as he "understands" Kramnik`s> Perhaps there's also a question of aesthetics. Giri gave an interesting interview in Russian on Chesspro, including: http://chesspro.ru/_events/2010/wei... "Who do you admire most among the major contemporary chess players? Who would you like to emulate? Giri: Emulate is going a bit too far. But I think Kasparov was the strongest chess player of all time. At the moment I like the way Anand plays. Carlsen's play doesn't make a great impression on me, I find his style too dry. But, of course, he's a very strong chess player. I'd like to win some positions the way Kramnik does". |
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| Feb-01-10 | | TheBB: <Mr. Bojangles>
<There are many, many examples of where stats don't and cannot tell the whole story or important parts of it, for this reason I am always weary of statistics-driven arguments and statistics in general.> As long as you are aware exactly what the statistics say and what they don't, there is no reason to be weary of such things. Statistics is a powerful tool that can illuminate many things. That some can't properly use it is not the fault of statistics, but of the users. You can't blame statistics for not telling the whole truth. Nothing can do that. You should rather blame yourself or others for expecting, assuming or pretending that it does. |
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| Feb-01-10 | | siamesedream: Wijking won! |
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| Feb-01-10 | | Refused: <polarmis: <gus inn: My overall impression is that this Momokrousososos doesn´t "understand" Carlsens play as much as he "understands" Kramnik`s>
Perhaps there's also a question of aesthetics. Giri gave an interesting interview in Russian on Chesspro, including: http://chesspro.ru/_events/2010/wei... "Who do you admire most among the major contemporary chess players? Who would you like to emulate? Giri: Emulate is going a bit too far. But I think Kasparov was the strongest chess player of all time. At the moment I like the way Anand plays. Carlsen's play doesn't make a great impression on me, I find his style too dry. But, of course, he's a very strong chess player. I'd like to win some positions the way Kramnik does".> Whole different message.
The not so yellow banana (that's gonna be one of my favorites for some weeks), said it's a shame that Carlsen won [despite his poor play] and Kramnik would have been a more deserving winner. Giri just said, he is simply not as appreciative of Carlsen's style of play. Giri doesn't play down Carlsen's strength or achievements, he just makes a remark about his personal preferences/taste. If I said, I consider Tal's game more entertaining than likesay Petrosian's, I'm not saying that Petrosian played poor chess. See the difference? |
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| Feb-02-10 | | Russian Grandmasters: LOL
Here is an almost endlessly entertaining youtube channel- This fellow attended Corus this year and made 500 very short videos of the players-- walking around, glaring at their positions-- Warning- this is an addictive channel to watch.
There's only ambient sound on the vids, and perhaps not surprisingly all you hear is the rustling of the players' clothes as they fidget. As Marcel Duchamp noted,
"Chess is a school of silence"
Not to be missed!
http://www.youtube.com/user/mehnavi... |
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| Feb-02-10 | | polarmis: <Refused>, I wasn't claiming they're saying the same thing, but I do think Monokroussos is applying aesthetic criteria. After all he talks about Carlsen playing "no memorable games", but maybe that's something we need to get used to - a "dry" style obscured by the excitement surrounding Carlsen's phenomenal rise - and Monokroussos is wrong to assume either poor form or poor play. |
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| Feb-02-10 | | percyblakeney: I think a serious chess commentator shouldn't call it a real shame and a pity that a certain player won a top event... |
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Feb-02-10
 | | KingG: <Monokroussos is wrong to assume either poor form or poor play.> Maybe he's looking at the games, and not assuming anything? Carlsen didn't sound too happy with his own form to me. He didn't play badly, but I don't think he played that well either. He was more solid than Kramnik, so deserved to finish ahead of him probably, but I think the one who played best overall was Shirov, and I also think it's a shame he didn't at least share first place. I don't see why a serious chess commentator shouldn't be allowed to say that. It's not like it's completely without foundation. If for example he had said it's a shame Carlsen won in London, then you would all have more reason to protest. |
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Feb-02-10
 | | alexrawlings: Apologies if this has already been discussed in one of the previous 128 pages, but which game was awarded the briliancy prize for this tournament? |
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| Feb-02-10 | | percyblakeney: <I don't see why a serious chess commentator shouldn't be allowed to say that. It's not like it's completely without foundation> I recall when Moro blundered away Biel against Vachier-Lagrave. I'm a Moro fan and maybe it was a shame that Moro made mistakes but summing up the event by saying that it was a shame that Vachier-Lagrave won it just wouldn't sound right... |
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| Feb-02-10 | | badest: < I think the one who played best overall was Shirov, and I also think it's a shame he didn't at least share first place. > This was Shirov's tournament.. but he "blundered" it away. The comment about Magnus is not surprising ... since he seemed to have a more of "ummm whatever" attitude. |
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| Feb-02-10 | | Refused: <percyblakeney: <I don't see why a serious chess commentator shouldn't be allowed to say that. It's not like it's completely without foundation>
I recall when Moro blundered away Biel against Vachier-Lagrave. I'm a Moro fan and maybe it was a shame that Moro made mistakes but summing up the event by saying that it was a shame that Vachier-Lagrave won it just wouldn't sound right...> Excactly, one might argue about Shirov's mishap and that he would have deserved an even better finish, but to call Carlsen's victory a shame is bad etiquette - to say the least. Btw. Monokroussos, wasn't our banana the same guy, Kasparov had some beef with (allright that applies to a lot of people), during his press conference after that match with Kasimdzhanov was called off? |
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Feb-02-10
 | | acirce: <Btw. Monokroussos, wasn't our banana the same guy, Kasparov had some beef with (allright that applies to a lot of people), during his press conference after that match with Kasimdzhanov was called off?> Um, no, or at least that would surprise me greatly as Monokrossous is a nobody that Kasparov probably has hardly even heard about. I'm not sure, but you may be thinking about Makropoulos, a totally different person, namely a FIDE honcho who, among other things, contributed directly to the Elista 2006 scandal (together with the other members of the Appeals Committee). |
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Feb-02-10
 | | rogge: <Makro> is a bigger name than <Mono>, obviously. |
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Feb-02-10
 | | KingG: It's pretty common in most other fields to say it's a shame so and so won, for whatever reason. For example in football, if one team plays very well, but isn't able to score, and then loses on penalties, then commentators would say it was a shame the better team didn't win. If someone think one film is great, but some other one wins the Oscar, then he might say it's a shame that the lesser film won. I mean, it's just common that if you think one person, team, film, whatever, was more deserving, then you might say it's a shame they didn't win. It's hardly a big crime. It's not like he said it's a disgrace that Carlsen won, which could sometimes be used by commentators in the above examples. <I recall when Moro blundered away Biel against Vachier-Lagrave. I'm a Moro fan and maybe it was a shame that Moro made mistakes but summing up the event by saying that it was a shame that Vachier-Lagrave won it just wouldn't sound right...> Well, maybe it would have sounded better if he had said it's a shame Shirov or Kramnik didn't win, instead of it's a shame Carlsen won, but it more or less amounts to the same thing. I think some people are talking this as some kind attack on Carlsen, which I doubt is intended. In any case, I don't think it's a very serious matter. He hardly needs people writing in to complain or anything. |
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