< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 7 OF 7 ·
|Aug-07-11|| ||I play the Fred: <“May I add that, and many of my friends know already, it would be highly hypocritical of me to ‘oppose’ any gay-equality charity as I have had gay relationships in the past.">|
Some of my best friends are gay, eh Lara? She's just another <Uncle Bruce>.
|Aug-07-11|| ||jahhaj: CJ has done a great deal for British chess in only a short time. If he wants to use his position for a little self promotion then who cares. British chess will be the loser if his resignation is accepted.|
|Aug-07-11|| ||HeMateMe: Sounds like he doesn't want the job very badly. Maybe he'd rather be selling T-shirts online?|
|Aug-07-11|| ||BobCrisp: <CJ has done a great deal for British chess in only a short time.> Great! Super! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drlP...|
|Aug-07-11|| ||polarmis: The resignation was rejected, and both Lara and CJ issued apologies (of sorts). The thread at the English Chess Forum has now been closed, so there's definitely an attempt to draw a line under the matter!|
|Aug-07-11|| ||BobCrisp: Despair not, there's plenty mileage here yet! This affair is proving far more entertaining than anything that happened OTB (of which, I admit, I was only dimly aware).|
|Aug-07-11|| ||YouRang: <Domdaniel: <YouRang> Calling him 'this fellow' makes him sound like some nonentity, using his moment in the spotlight (of chess in Britain?) to promote his cause.>|
Actually, It wasn't my intent to render him a non-entity. I've not heard of him before, but I'll take your word for it that he has earned some celebrity status for himself and has been good for chess in Britain.
But even so, I would think that in general, taking on the role of "prize presenter" means that you're to direct attention toward those who won prizes. It's an inappropriate time to be drawing attention to one's personal cause.
Another point: It may be that the sentiment expressed on the T-shirt is offensive to some player. It would be like a Jewish player receiving an award from a presenter wearing a bright red "Jesus is the only way to heaven" T-shirt. IMO, it's simply not the right time to be imposing non-chess related issues.
|Aug-08-11|| ||pawn to QB4: I did think CJ's shirt a bit offensive, with its assumption that the reader will be prejudiced and needs to be told to get over it. He'd hardly be ECF President if we were all homophobes, would he? Still, I met him once (the wife's a fan of his show and was far more impressed that I'd met CJ than that I'd shook the hand of some chap called Gary Kasparov). Lovely guy (CJ not Gary), glad they turned down the resignation offer.|
|Aug-08-11|| ||kellmano: <HeHateMe> We do not have gay marriage in the UK, but there is a civil ceremony option, which confers most (if not all) the legal privileges that a marriage does.|
That said, the UK is pretty tolerant of diversity regarding sexuality. I live in the gay capital (Brighton) where the gay pride festival takes place (this weekend i think) and nobody could care less what sexuality anyone else has.
In fairness to both parties, their apologies were both well written and honest. It takes a big person to admit their mistakes, particularly over issues like this - as can be confirmed by a lot of the arguments on this site.
|Aug-08-11|| ||Domdaniel: <BobCrisp> - < I'd never heard of him. And now I've heard of him, I don't want to hear about him again.>|
Bob, Bob. You're *out of touch* and *proud* of it. You didn't even know the British championships were on until four or five rounds were gone. And I have the impression that your range of cultural reference is not the widest. And you like it that way.
<Who is De Mooi?
Who could be so screwy?
Say it loud
Say it in Dutch
I'm out of touch.>
|Aug-08-11|| ||PinnedPiece: Anyone know...
Why does the Chessgames leader board (above) show 8.5 - 8.5 for both Adams and Short?
Didn't Adams win? Tiebreaks aren't scored? What?
|Aug-08-11|| ||MOLLOYCHESS: <YouRang> that example is not the same at all. CJ is not taking a fundamentalist stance- he is promoting tolerance. That shouldn't be offensive to anybody. Also he was wearing the T-shirt the day before- he wasn't trying to take the limelight away from the winners imo. It really shouldn't have been an issue in the first place. The fact that it was shows that the wearing of such T-shirts is still necessary unfortunately.|
|Aug-08-11|| ||polarmis: <MOLLOYCHESS>, he'd tweeted the day before that he was going to wear the T-shirt at the closing ceremony, tagging StonewallUK, so it was clear he wanted to use the ceremony to promote the campaign. It's different to wear the T-shirt on the previous day when you're just a spectator in the crowd.|
I don't think there's any evidence here of homophobia or discrimination. The woman who mentioned it to him says she's had same sex relationships in the past (which I think you'll agree is going somewhat beyond "some of my best friends are gay"). CJ de Mooi said in his apology that he hadn't used either of those terms - but calling the action "disgusting" was clearly making that implication. Personally I agree with those who think it's wrong to be using the closing ceremony to promote any cause other than chess, however laudable.
Anyway, the apologies already given should suffice to forget about the whole incident (a no logos guideline for future awards ceremonies would also make sense).
|Aug-08-11|| ||kingfu: Why do they not just have a match between Adams and Short?|
My favorite player is Stuart Conquest, just because of his name. Also, rated over 2500.
|Aug-08-11|| ||MOLLOYCHESS: <Polarmis>
Well, I can't argue with the stance that some think that no promotion of any cause whatsoever is the best approach. I strongly suspect, however, that a T-shirt promoting racial tolerance would have passed unmentioned.
While there was no outright homophobia there are still some archaic ideas being voiced. Lara Barnes (her being bi-sexual is irrelevant imo) objected to CJ presenting to children, saying he was "promoting a sexuality". This is akin to the view, once part of the mainstream but still widely held, that teachers of children should not be gay, or at least not openly gay.
|Aug-08-11|| ||YouRang: Hello <MOLLOYCHESS>.|
<that example is not the same at all. CJ is not taking a fundamentalist stance- he is promoting tolerance. That shouldn't be offensive to anybody.>
First, my example was just one of many possible examples. Even if we change the T-Shirt to "Jesus Loves You" (love is good, right?) I think the Jewish player would have reason to take offense.
You may propose that we try to resolve such disputes by setting criteria for which types of "statements" are acceptable. But IMO, any such effort is doomed from the beginning. The poor sap stuck with the job of judging which statements are offensive and which aren't is guaranteed to take flak from one side or the other, if not both.
It's very tempting to devalue the feelings of people who hold views that you disagree with, but tolerance cuts both ways.
My position is to avoid such disputes in the first place, simply by adopting a neutral stance and accepting that not every venue is an appropriate occasion for one make statements to promote one's cause. Being the prize presenter at a chess tournament such a case, IMO. Perhaps the tournament organizers are somewhat at fault if they failed to insist on neutrality ahead of time.
Now, I would propose an exception:
If the tournament had been sponsored by some Gay Rights organization, then his shirt would be okay. If it were sponsored by some Evangelistic Christian group, then the "Jesus Saves" shirt would be okay. At least the players and observers know in advance that the tournament is affiliated with a particular cause, and they can decide accordingly whether to participate or not.
|Aug-08-11|| ||kellmano: Yes that is a good point <MOLLOY> about what the reponse would have been had it been about racial tolerance. IMO the reaction that homosexuality should not be promoted to kids is a little odd. The T-shirt did not say 'have you considered a bit of same-sex intercourse' anyway.|
Nevertheless CJ spat the dummy then apologised for doing so. He irritates me a lot of the time, but I think his reaction here is reasonable (in that he over-reacted, than acknowledged it). All good liberals have the problem of how to deal with intolerance, but I think the approach 'I will tolerate anything other than intolerance' is not as paradoxical as it may seem at first glance. There are loads of analogous examples (e.g. empiricism or scepticism to name but two).
|Aug-08-11|| ||Domdaniel: <kellmano> Exceptionally wise and thoughtful. Are you by any chance a *houyhnhnm*?|
|Aug-08-11|| ||PinnedPiece: Geemanee.
What an absolute crap page that can't answer my question about the tournament--but must talk about gay issues.
Hooray for Gay Pride, and the Homosexual Presence, submerging all other conversation save for introspective philosophical colloquys about tolerance as it is applicable to all human endeavor.
(How *expletive deleted* tolerant would a meeting of gays be toward a speaker wearing a "Marriage is between a Man and Woman" T shirt? Tolerance to liberals means: "You accept our beliefs without strong criticism. Your beliefs are of course medieval.")
Now can someone answer my question, please?
|Aug-08-11|| ||polarmis: <PinnedPiece> - those are the results after the main part of the tournament. Adams and Short tied and actually shared most of the prize money - then they played a couple of rapid games to decide who was the Champion. Adams won 1:5-0:5, but you can't really add those two games onto the standings.|
|Aug-08-11|| ||PinnedPiece: <polarmis>: Thanks!|
Disregard previous post now.
|Aug-10-11|| ||kramputz: Keep your< PinnedPiece > perversion out of chess. Are you a catcher or a pitcher?|
|Aug-10-11|| ||DrMAL: <YouRang> Good points as usual. It's a (national championship) chess tournament, nothing else.|
|Aug-17-11|| ||kingfu: The answer to your question is that tie breaks are garbage. They do not solve anything.|
Let's play Chess. Let them solve it OVER the board.
I once saw a NHL Hockey game that went into SEVEN periods because one team had to score a goal to win the game.
Chess needs to be more like that. Keep playing until someone WINS!
No emails, no memos.
Let's play CHESS.
|Aug-17-11|| ||kingfu: No blitzes, no rapids.
LET'S PLAY CHESS.
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