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TOURNAMENT STANDINGS
15th Unive (Crown Group) Tournament

Vladimir Kramnik4.5/6(+3 -0 =3)[view games]
Anish Giri3/6(+1 -1 =4)[view games]
Maxime Vachier-Lagrave2.5/6(+0 -1 =5)[view games]
Judit Polgar2/6(+0 -2 =4)[view games]

 page 1 of 1; 12 games  PGN Download 
Game  ResultMoves Year Event/LocaleOpening
1. M Vachier-Lagrave vs Judit Polgar ½-½64 2011 15th Unive (Crown Group)E17 Queen's Indian
2. Kramnik vs A Giri 1-035 2011 15th Unive (Crown Group)E97 King's Indian
3. Kramnik vs Judit Polgar 1-031 2011 15th Unive (Crown Group)E14 Queen's Indian
4. A Giri vs M Vachier-Lagrave  ½-½24 2011 15th Unive (Crown Group)A15 English
5. Judit Polgar vs A Giri ½-½27 2011 15th Unive (Crown Group)C45 Scotch Game
6. M Vachier-Lagrave vs Kramnik ½-½28 2011 15th Unive (Crown Group)D37 Queen's Gambit Declined
7. A Giri vs Kramnik ½-½63 2011 15th Unive (Crown Group)A20 English
8. Judit Polgar vs M Vachier-Lagrave ½-½44 2011 15th Unive (Crown Group)B90 Sicilian, Najdorf
9. Kramnik vs M Vachier-Lagrave 1-087 2011 15th Unive (Crown Group)A15 English
10. A Giri vs Judit Polgar 1-047 2011 15th Unive (Crown Group)A15 English
11. Judit Polgar vs Kramnik ½-½22 2011 15th Unive (Crown Group)C67 Ruy Lopez
12. M Vachier-Lagrave vs A Giri  ½-½96 2011 15th Unive (Crown Group)D37 Queen's Gambit Declined
  REFINE SEARCH:   White wins (1-0) | Black wins (0-1) | Draws (1/2-1/2)  
 

Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 15 OF 16 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Oct-23-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  Karpova: <Theres a big difference in our ratings," Topalov stressed. "In chess 60 Elo points means a different class altogether. If Vladimir was offered to play against someone 60 Elo points below himself hed simply burst out laughing. If there is going to be a Topalov-Kramnik match, it will be on purely commercial basis. I do not believe we can play for the title because Ive already won it here in San Luis. A Topalov-Kramnik match for the title is out of question, because FIDE has organised a two-year cycle for the world championship, analogous to the one we had in San Luis, where eight qualifiers will fight for the title. Thus the tournament shall determine the new holder of the Crown. That is the plan.>

Source: http://www.chessbase.com/newsprint....

Oct-23-11  jussu: Oh, so my memory failed me as usual. Thanks <Karpova>.
Oct-23-11  hellopolgar: <rogge> Thanks for providing the link.
Oct-23-11  frogbert: <In chess 60 Elo points means a different class altogether. If Vladimir was offered to play against someone 60 Elo points below himself hed simply burst out laughing. If there is going to be a Topalov-Kramnik match, it will be on purely commercial basis. I do not believe we can play for the title because Ive already won it here in San Luis. A Topalov-Kramnik match for the title is out of question>

interesting how many wrongs it's possible to pack into a single paragraph:

- a topalov-kramnik match for the title is out of the question

(yeah, we noticed)

-in chess 60 elo points means a different class altogether

(the lack of deep understanding among the elite players of how the rating system actually works never ceases to amaze me. they repeatedly err to either side in wrongly interpreting rating differences and downplaying/exaggerating its meaning. topalov, kramnik and nakamura have all made pretty silly statements about ratings over the past years, basically disclosing only very partial understanding of what ratings are. i'm sure they are not the only elite gms with such "issues", but they are the three providing examples of "strange" statements that are freshest in my mind. naka's comments were made on icc this or the previous week, btw.)

Oct-24-11  WiseWizard: Kramnik rolls a 4,5,6. $$$
Oct-24-11  ooda: Is that it for the year now? I've noticed that the top tournaments seem to rapidly wind down then cease for the year around this time. I hope there are 1 or 2 big one's left.
Oct-24-11  jussu: London Classic is coming.
Oct-24-11  nescio: <ooda>
Sorry to disappoint you:

Moscow 16-25 November http://www.chess.com/news/tal-memor...

London 3-12 December http://www.londonchessclassic.com/

Oct-24-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  acirce: Yes, two more super-tournaments that both have all of Carlsen, Anand, Aronian and Kramnik! What a year.
Oct-24-11  Mr. Bojangles: <s," Topalov stressed. "In chess 60 Elo points means a different class altogether. If Vladimir was offered to play against someone 60 Elo points below himself hed simply burst out laughing. If there is going to be a Topalov-Kramnik match, it will be on purely commercial basis. I do not believe we can play for the title because Ive already won it here in San Luis. A Topalov-Kramnik match for the title is out of question...>

Considering the beat-down that Brother-leader Kramnik put on Mr Kasparov just 5 years earlier despite a ratings difference of 70 points, it was foolish of Topalov to make the above statement.

Of course he knew better and I believe he was merely playing mind games.

05/06 Topalov was becoming invincible until Kramnik shattered that facade for good. He hasn't been the same since.

Oct-24-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  acirce: Col. Kramnik didn't burst out laughing when Lk won the Dortmund qualifier either. The difference in rating was 85 points at that time.
Oct-24-11  Mr. Bojangles: Lol@Col Kramnik...
Oct-24-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  chancho: 2006.
Good laughs:

http://www.chessbase.com/eventlist....

Oct-24-11  Mr. Bojangles: Thx for d memories Chacho

It is 5 years this month, how time flies hey.

Damn we had a ball here !!!!

Oct-24-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  chancho: <Mr Bojangles> Yeah, it was a laugh a minute.
Oct-24-11  jussu: The most famous laugh: http://www.chessbase.com/news/2006/...

<nescio> - Of course, Tal Mem, too. Meaning that the two probably most notable tournaments of the year are still ahead.

Oct-24-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  acirce: <jussu> I thought your link would lead to this: http://chesspro.ru/match/images/pho...
Oct-24-11  Mr. Bojangles: Yes that was the Dracula Laff from Danailov.

Can't help but feel that he must be surprised and disappointed at the way things have turned out.

Danailov almost had the chess world by the balls when Topalov was riding high.

Thank goodness Topa didnt win in Elista, Danailov would have flung the chess world like a rag doll.

Can't begin to imagine the antics those two would have subjected us to.

They were choosing which journalist to talk to, who to ostracise, which tournaments to blacklist, even imposing their own rules etc.

Posterior-holes both of them!

Oct-24-11  The Rocket: <"Considering the beat-down that Brother-leader Kramnik put on Mr Kasparov just 5 years earlier despite a ratings difference of 70 points, it was foolish of Topalov to make the above statement.">

He is most probably talking about the 60 points difference between 2700 and 2760.

That is those of the top 10 and the rest. It is well known that of the few that reach 2700 even fewer reach the top 10

Oct-24-11  The Rocket: I should also say that Topalov is right.

The difference between peter-heine nielsen of 2700 and the regular top 10 guys is signficant

Oct-24-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  Gypsy: <... He is most probably talking about the 60 points difference between 2700 and 2760. ...>

No. Topalov/Danailov were talking exactly about the Elo difference between himself and Kramnik at the time. (Topalov had just won FIDE title in a tournament and Kramnik, who was hampered by physical pain associated with a medical condition, was falling in ratings after relatively indifferent, even poor competitive results.)

Yet the real underlying issue was that Topalov developed a peculiar variant of champions' disease and rather than challenging for the Stenitz-line title OTB, his manager Danailov angled to win the unified WC title for Topalov by a fiat.

I remember it well. Till that point, I was an enthusiastic fan of Topa. I liked his fighting attitude. Then his attempt to gain title by fiat turned me off. Yet, when he later agreed to play Kramnik in the title unification match in Elista, I was ready to embrace Fighting Topa once again; whether he won or lost the match. Alas, when he and Danailov pulled off the toilet-gate crap in Elista, my regards for him got broken again, now apparently beyond repair.

Oct-24-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  HeMateMe: Danailov is now president of the Europeon chess federation, or something like that? Why would the other countries want Topalov's manager to be in a leadership position?

Is this a job title you can buy, like a peerage, in England?

Oct-25-11  jussu: <acirce>, Aye, I actually looked for that, but did not find it.
Oct-25-11  frogbert: <Topalov/Danailov were talking exactly about the Elo difference between himself and Kramnik at the time.>

and the silliest mistake topalov did when it comes to "rating tehnicalities", was to misjudge kramnik's current rating at the time for kramnik's actual, well-proven capacity as a chess player. as gypsy mentions, kramnik's rating at the time was the consequence of a string of weak results, probably caused by his physical illness. the rating system could reflect these performances - but how on earth could any system "predict" if and how much better he would/could perform once he was physically fit again?

if two players <consistently>, over time, are separated by 60-ish points i would agree that there's a difference in class. any player's current rating (interpreted without also taking history into account) is first and foremost an expression of his/her <most recent results>. most players have good and bad streaks; the streaks are mostly releatively short, but then there are streaky players who can go on good and bad streaks for longer periods of time - the "classical" example being ivanchuk.

it's all too easy to forget what ratings measure - results, not absolute skills. but consistent results over time is a good estimate of chess skills - imho the best we have.

(but nothing in the elo rating theory promises instant result prediction to be part of the package; that's a common misunderstanding and its current widespreadness is helped a lot by jeff sonas' two misguided projects: "inflation correction" and ranking of rating systems based on "immediate result prediction" capabilities. the first is clearly pointless/meaningless, while the second totally lacks solid justification. jeff being touted by chessbase as a "statistician" (as if statistics were his profession) and fide making him a member of their "rating expert group" haven't exactly made it easier to neutralize the more harmful effects of these projects.)

<I should also say that Topalov is right. The difference between peter-heine nielsen of 2700 and the regular top 10 guys is signficant>

here's the same effect as with kramnik pre 2006, but with reversed "signs": nielsen, while an excellent player and opening expert isn't capable of 2700 on average - when he gets to 2700, it's the consequence of a string of <above-average> results. heine's skills aren't oscillating up and down very much, but most players' results do indeed follow such a pattern.

so yes, the difference in skills is significant, but assigning "2700" to nielsen distorts the picture; the difference between his rating and the top 10 average is mostly significantly more than 60 points. also, when i say that radjabov and ivanchuk are "too close" to the top four players right now, it's for the same reasons. my expectation based on history is that their near future results will (again) regress towards the mean of their overall results. and while radjabov is young enough to increase his capacity as a player, i'm pretty confident that ivanchuk is not.

summarizing, topalov - the world champion - clearly failed to draw the right kind of conclusions from the available rating data, <unless> it was all "propaganda" and exclusively aimed at causing discomfort in the kramnik camp. but even though the majority of the elite players are very smart people, not all of them necessarily have the deepest of insights into the rating system or the prerequisites to gain them. and why should they have? their expert area is, after all, chess - not maths or statistics.

Oct-25-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  tamar: Those were heady days for Topalov, but overall I don't blame him for touting his ratings edge over Kramnik. Players do it all the time.

In Jan 2003 his 2735 rating was "sub-elite" against Kramniks 2809, but in 2.5 years or so he had not only bridged the gap, but passed him by 60 points.

And you can hear in Kramnik's recent interview on whychess, that he himself divides players into elite and sub elite, so it is hardly just Topalov who only believes ratings when they are in his favor.

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