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TOURNAMENT STANDINGS
(SPECIAL SCORING IN EFFECT: 3 POINTS PER WIN; 1 POINT PER DRAW)
Bilbao Masters Tournament

Fabiano Caruana17(+4 -1 =5)[view games]
Magnus Carlsen17(+4 -1 =5)[view games]
Levon Aronian11(+1 -1 =8)[view games]
Sergey Karjakin10(+1 -2 =7)[view games]
Viswanathan Anand9(+0 -1 =9)[view games]
Francisco Vallejo-Pons6(+0 -4 =6)[view games]

 page 1 of 2; games 1-25 of 30  PGN Download
Game  ResultMoves Year Event/LocaleOpening
1. Anand vs Vallejo-Pons ½-½59 2012 Bilbao MastersD38 Queen's Gambit Declined, Ragozin Variation
2. Aronian vs Karjakin 1-030 2012 Bilbao MastersE15 Queen's Indian
3. Caruana vs Carlsen 1-091 2012 Bilbao MastersC19 French, Winawer, Advance
4. Vallejo-Pons vs Carlsen 0-141 2012 Bilbao MastersB07 Pirc
5. Karjakin vs Caruana 0-136 2012 Bilbao MastersC78 Ruy Lopez
6. Anand vs Aronian ½-½35 2012 Bilbao MastersC67 Ruy Lopez
7. Carlsen vs Karjakin ½-½67 2012 Bilbao MastersE15 Queen's Indian
8. Aronian vs Vallejo-Pons ½-½33 2012 Bilbao MastersD39 Queen's Gambit Declined, Ragozin, Vienna Variation
9. Caruana vs Anand ½-½70 2012 Bilbao MastersB52 Sicilian, Canal-Sokolsky (Rossolimo) Attack
10. Carlsen vs Aronian ½-½48 2012 Bilbao MastersC65 Ruy Lopez, Berlin Defense
11. Caruana vs Vallejo-Pons 1-024 2012 Bilbao MastersC02 French, Advance
12. Karjakin vs Anand ½-½31 2012 Bilbao MastersD12 Queen's Gambit Declined Slav
13. Anand vs Carlsen ½-½58 2012 Bilbao MastersE17 Queen's Indian
14. Vallejo-Pons vs Karjakin  ½-½55 2012 Bilbao MastersC65 Ruy Lopez, Berlin Defense
15. Aronian vs Caruana ½-½73 2012 Bilbao MastersA04 Reti Opening
16. Karjakin vs Aronian ½-½33 2012 Bilbao MastersC89 Ruy Lopez, Marshall
17. Carlsen vs Caruana 1-066 2012 Bilbao MastersC00 French Defense
18. Vallejo-Pons vs Anand  ½-½39 2012 Bilbao MastersC78 Ruy Lopez
19. Carlsen vs Vallejo-Pons 1-043 2012 Bilbao MastersC01 French, Exchange
20. Aronian vs Anand ½-½33 2012 Bilbao MastersD38 Queen's Gambit Declined, Ragozin Variation
21. Caruana vs Karjakin ½-½40 2012 Bilbao MastersC67 Ruy Lopez
22. Vallejo-Pons vs Aronian ½-½56 2012 Bilbao MastersB06 Robatsch
23. Karjakin vs Carlsen ½-½35 2012 Bilbao MastersC18 French, Winawer
24. Anand vs Caruana ½-½45 2012 Bilbao MastersD70 Neo-Grunfeld Defense
25. Caruana vs Aronian 1-039 2012 Bilbao MastersC84 Ruy Lopez, Closed
 page 1 of 2; games 1-25 of 30  PGN Download
  REFINE SEARCH:   White wins (1-0) | Black wins (0-1) | Draws (1/2-1/2)  
 

Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 42 OF 42 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Oct-18-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: <Olavi> Byrne's result was hardly a one-off; in the following cycle at Biel 1976, he very nearly qualified again, finishing one-half point short of the triple playoff for the final two slots:

http://www.365chess.com/tournaments...

Oct-18-12  Olavi: <perfidious> That's true, but the respective scores were 12,5/17 and 11,5/19. That just shows how exceptional Leningrad 73 was, the score needed to qualify.
Oct-18-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  Eggman: <<perfidious>>

I know that Larsen resented FIDE President Euwe for making him play at Leningrad, but are you sure it was because of the strength of the field?

Oct-18-12  nok: <the complete inability of any of your players to progress in the 70's Candidates Matches>

That's only natural. Success in the WC cycle demands great self-confidence. When one guy is beating you 13-1 or 17-3, you know you'll never be WC. So you settle for usual super-tournament life (and it's not that bad).

Oct-18-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: <Eggman> Yes: Huebner was (I think) another player who was unhappy with the composition of the fields vis-a-vis one another, believing Leningrad was clearly the tougher field (not that anyone gave Byrne a shot). This is perfectly understandable, as Leningrad had Korchnoi, Karpov and Tal, who entered Leningrad on a long unbeaten run. Then came the aforementioned Larsen, Huebner and Smejkal-who only fell from the running after throwing away a better position vs Karpov in the penultimate round.
Oct-18-12  drik: <nok: <the complete inability of any of your players to progress in the 70's Candidates Matches> That's only natural. Success in the WC cycle demands great self-confidence. When one guy is beating you 13-1 or 17-3, you know you'll never be WC. So you settle for usual super-tournament life (and it's not that bad).>

You don't KNOW beforehand that 'one guy' is going to have a lifetime 13-1 or 17-3 plus score against you - so that is a truly riduculous reason for lacking motivation. You are saying that their premonitions of disaster against Karpov, unmanned them to such a degree that they lost matches to other players? Even if it were true, it would show pathetic lack of spirit. Kasparov beat Shirov 15-0 but that didn't stop Shirov beating Kramnik & qualifying to face his personal demon.

Did their supernatural fear of Karpov also explain their inability to enter the top 8 of the Elo ratings too?

Oct-18-12  drik: <brankat: That the top players who emerged mostly in the 1950s were still the top masters of the 1970s only shows just how good they were, not how weak the opposition was.>

Logically, it might show either or both.

January 1980 - FIDE Rating List http://fidelists.blogspot.com.au/20... 1 . Karpov,An. USR 2725
2 . Tal USR 2705
3 . Kortchnoi,V. SUI 2695
4 . Portisch,L. HUN 2655
5 . Polugaevsky,L. USR 2635
6 . Mecking,H. BRA 2615
7 . Petrosian,T. USR 2615
8 . Spassky,B. USR 2615

Only two playera are under 40, Karpov & Mecking (who had to retire from chess with myasthenia gravis).

Look at todays rating list - http://ratings.fide.com/top.phtml?l... 1 Carlsen, Magnus 2843
2 Aronian, Levon 2821
3 Kramnik, Vladimir 2795
4 Radjabov, Teimour 2792
5 Nakamura, Hikaru 2786
6 Karjakin, Sergey 2780
7 Anand, Viswanathan 2780
8 Caruana, Fabiano 2772

Only Anand is over 40 ... & he is struggling to stay in the frame.

Seriously, isn't the contrast STRIKING? Find me any rating list from outside the 70's, as totally dominated by over 40s.

Oct-18-12  badest: <dirk> That is one way to look at it. Now look at the players involved in the last 4 WC-matches.

... I don't see many 20-year olds.

Oct-18-12  drik: <Mr. Bojangles: Historically, the strongest of GMs (regardless of era) were/are able to perform well into their 40s and even 50s>

Show me the 40+ year olds, other than Karpov in the top 8 of the FIDE 1991 rating list -http://www.olimpbase.org/Elo/Elo199...

1 Kasparov 2800 1963.04.13
2 Karpov 2725 1951.05.23
3 Gelfand 2700 1968.06.24
4 Ivanchuk 2695 1969.03.18
5 Bareev 2650 1966.11.21
6 Gurevich 2650 1959.02.22
7 Ehlvest 2650 1962.10.14
8 Yudasin 2645 1959.08.08

NONE - that generation had already been shoved aside by the 20 & 30 something crowd. Something that that generation had been completely unable to do against those 15 years older than themselves.

Oct-18-12  drik: <badest: <dirk> That is one way to look at it. Now look at the players involved in the last 4 WC-matches.... I don't see many 20-year olds.>

It's the same way of looking at it. I'm not arguing that 20-year olds are inherently superior. I'm arguing that Karpov's generation (other than Karpov) was weaker than the generation that preceded it & weaker than the generation that followed it. The strength or otherwise of the current generation, has no bearing on this argument.

Oct-18-12  Lambda: Through most of the 20th century, you'll find 2 or 3 over-40s in the top 10. 1980 has 7, in which respect it is matched by 1930, which also has 7, but those two are definitely strong outliers. In recent years, just one over-40 has become more common.

Karpov's reign is quite strange in that it presides almost precisely over a temporary large blooming in the number of over-40s at the top, (including the most significant player; Korchnoi, to be undoubtedly a significantly better player in his 40s than he was before), but it's also strange in other ways;

He is most renowned as a winner of an incredible number of tournaments, but actually has a significantly better record in match play, averaging a better win-loss ratio against other strong players. Notably, he fought Kasparov virtually to a draw in match play, but lost to him twice in tournaments over the same period.

While we're thinking of Kasparov, Karpov does not actually reach his peak strength until after he has lost the world title! He seems at his absolute best from about 1986-1990.

Oct-18-12  nok: <You don't KNOW beforehand that 'one guy' is going to have a lifetime 13-1 or 17-3 plus score against you - so that is a truly riduculous reason for lacking motivation.>

It hardly matters whether it's gonna be 10-1 or 15-1 in the end; the point is that you're getting thrashed. By the time of Baguio, Karpov's score against Andersson was 79 %. Against Miles it was 81 %. Miles' first win came in 1980 with his famous "this guy is unplayable, so I might as well play 1.e4 a6!" inside joke.

Shirov won a match against Kramnik, yes -- but that's just one match. Huebner also won one against Portisch (and almost Smyslov, roulettes notwithstanding). Overall I doubt that Shirov's score against Kasparov did him any good, and indeed he hasn't been your steadiest performer.

Oct-18-12  nok: <While we're thinking of Kasparov, Karpov does not actually reach his peak strength until after he has lost the world title! He seems at his absolute best from about 1986-1990.>

That's debatable. Certainly, the arrival of Kasparov forced him to exert himself a bit more, which upped his nominal performance. But Dvoretsky e.g. noticed that he was a touch more approximative in his calculation here and there (in late 85 iirc).

Oct-18-12  celso chini: Hello from Brazil! Excelent debate! Thank you all! In my modest opinion karpov was the toughest chess competitor till 1985! he slautered the competition! he almost broke even kasparov! Anyway all of us have our preferences.......this is the reason I love chess! Abrašo a todos! Best Regards!
Oct-19-12  drik: <Lambda: Through most of the 20th century, you'll find 2 or 3 over-40s in the top 10. 1980 has 7, in which respect it is matched by 1930, which also has 7>

What source do you use for 1930? Using Chessmetrics, Alekhine 38, Capablanca 42, Nimzowitsch 44, Bogolyubov 41, Rubinstein 48, Euwe 29, Kashdan 25, Gruenfeld 37, Spielmann 47, Tartakower 43. So 6 by my count, but consider how many of the 30-somethings of this generation died in the Great War and Spanish Flu pandemic. The 50's generation matured in one of the most stable and prosperous eras.

<but those two are definitely strong outliers.>

Which is basically my point - I'm not saying that those born around 1950 (with the exception of Karpov) are the weakest generation of all time; I'm just saying that they were weaker than the generation before & weaker than the generation after.

<Karpov's reign is quite strange in that it presides almost precisely...>

...with the retirement of a dominant world No.1 at the peak of his powers & the retirement for illness of a young and improving world No.3 (Mecking).

Oct-19-12  drik: <nok: By the time of Baguio, Karpov's score against Andersson was 79 %.>

From 1969 to 1977 Karpov and Andersson played 7 games, with Karpov +3 -1 =3. This is 64% by my reckoning & scarcely a result so disastrous as to cause Andersson to subconsciously lose to others, simply to avoid Karpov.

<Shirov won a match against Kramnik, yes... Overall I doubt that Shirov's score against Kasparov did him any good>

He qualified to face Kasparov; despite his -15 +0 record. So it weakens your theory that Andersson's -3 +1 record was too initimidating to permit qualification.

Oct-19-12  drik: <celso chini: In my modest opinion karpov was the toughest chess competitor till 1985!>

Nobody could contest this - except to extend your timeline to 1990 at least!

Oct-19-12  nok: <64 % by my reckoning> Right, Andersson's only win ever against Karpov came in 1975, which made the percentage a bit less embarrassing at that point. Still, 64 % is roughly Carlsen's score over Ivanchuk or Nakamura. Enough to shake a player's confidence, if you ask me.

<(Shirov) qualified to play Kasparov> As I said, Shirov won one match. The cycle was in shambles and he took his chance. But whether he'd been consistent enough to get through a 70s type Interzonal and set of Candidates is another matter.

Oct-19-12  Lambda: <What source do you use for 1930? Using Chessmetrics, Alekhine 38, Capablanca 42, Nimzowitsch 44, Bogolyubov 41, Rubinstein 48, Euwe 29, Kashdan 25, Gruenfeld 37, Spielmann 47, Tartakower 43.>

I'm using Chessmetrics. (Specifically, I was looking at January 19?[05]) I can't find the month in 1930 when Gruenfeld and Kashdan were simultaneously present.

<Which is basically my point - I'm not saying that those born around 1950 (with the exception of Karpov) are the weakest generation of all time; I'm just saying that they were weaker than the generation before & weaker than the generation after.>

To talk about a "generation", you'd need a far wider sample size than just people who appear in the top ten. We're only looking at a small number of "super-players", so to speak. And we're observing that a cluster of them were born in the 30s, then there was a lean period, apart from Karpov, when the other best players being born were "not-quite-super" by our definition, until another cluster emerged (starting with Kasparov). Where people who couldn't reach their full potential due to illness or mental issues are excluded from this definition of a super-player.

It's a valid observation, but less relevant than it would be in most sports because of the wide range of ages at which chess players can excel. You wouldn't get someone like Korchnoi not being able to unleash his full potential _until_ he got into his 40s, or Lasker regaining his world #1 spot past 55 even against two of history's greatest, in something more physical.

Oct-19-12  drik: <nok: <64 % by my reckoning> Right, Andersson's only win ever against Karpov came in 1975, which made the percentage a bit less embarrassing at that point. Still, 64 % is roughly Carlsen's score over Ivanchuk or Nakamura. Enough to shake a player's confidence, if you ask me.>

Alekhine was -4 =4 or 25% against Capablanca before their match. Fischer was -3 =2 or 20% against Spassky before their match. Both still won comfortably, so I'm not convinced.

Oct-19-12  drik: <Lambda: I'm using Chessmetrics. (Specifically, I was looking at January 19?> Ah! I was looking at a range of one year, centred around Jan 1930. But as you say, these two examples are outliers - where the norm is for the top 8 to be populated by players in their 20's & 30's.

<To talk about a "generation", you'd need a far wider sample size than just people who appear in the top ten. We're only looking at a small number of "super-players",> I didn't define 'generation'. But in the context of Karpov's relative dominance at the top, I took it as read that we were only considering the very top ... since these are the only players that could have curbed his dominance.

<It's a valid observation, but less relevant than it would be in most sports> Fair enough - but I'm not comparing it to other sports. I'm only comparing it to chess - in the generation before & the generation after.

Oct-20-12  lemaire90: The champion of the world couldn't even pull off a win...
Oct-20-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: <lemaire90> Your ability to state the obvious is most impressive indeed. Perhaps you-along with many of the posters critical of Anand-could do better.
Oct-20-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  brankat: <perfidious>

<Your ability to state the obvious is most impressive indeed.>

You don't like to see a dead horse being beaten? :-)

<Perhaps you-along with many of the posters critical of Anand-could do better.> Alas!

Oct-20-12  drik: <brankat: <perfidious> You don't like to see a dead horse being beaten? :-)>

I think it is not the being beaten - but the being beaten to no purpose. After all, few of us had missed the fact! Still ... if the dead horse is still world champion, I'm sure he'll feel nothing, for more reasons than one.

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