In November 1938, a Dutch radio company AVRO ... [more]
Player: Reuben Fine
| page 1 of 1; 14 games
|1. Fine vs Botvinnik
||1-0||31||1938||AVRO||C17 French, Winawer, Advance|
|2. Reshevsky vs Fine
||0-1||37||1938||AVRO||E10 Queen's Pawn Game|
|3. Fine vs Capablanca
||½-½||44||1938||AVRO||C17 French, Winawer, Advance|
|4. Euwe vs Fine
||0-1||44||1938||AVRO||D30 Queen's Gambit Declined|
|5. Fine vs Flohr
||1-0||28||1938||AVRO||C17 French, Winawer, Advance|
|6. Alekhine vs Fine
||0-1||68||1938||AVRO||C83 Ruy Lopez, Open|
|7. Fine vs Keres
||0-1||57||1938||AVRO||C86 Ruy Lopez, Worrall Attack|
|8. Botvinnik vs Fine
||½-½||19||1938||AVRO||C48 Four Knights|
|9. Fine vs Reshevsky
||0-1||55||1938||AVRO||C97 Ruy Lopez, Closed, Chigorin|
|10. Capablanca vs Fine
||½-½||42||1938||AVRO||E34 Nimzo-Indian, Classical, Noa Variation|
|11. Fine vs Euwe
||0-1||30||1938||AVRO||D39 Queen's Gambit Declined, Ragozin, Vienna Variation|
|12. Flohr vs Fine
|| ||½-½||19||1938||AVRO||E02 Catalan, Open, 5.Qa4|
|13. Fine vs Alekhine
||1-0||46||1938||AVRO||C72 Ruy Lopez, Modern Steinitz Defense, 5.O-O|
|14. Keres vs Fine
||½-½||19||1938||AVRO||C83 Ruy Lopez, Open|
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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 11 OF 11 ·
|Jun-06-18|| ||JimNorCal: Yes, Poland's suffering is notable, I think higher death count per capita than other participants in the War. |
Poland's recovery is an inspiring one.
|Jun-07-18|| ||WorstPlayerEver: <Count Wedgemore>|
Oh thanks, it must be ages ago since someone defended me.
However,<Diademas> although sounding a tad arrogant, is right.
|Jun-07-18|| ||ChessHigherCat: Norway resisted the Nazis for the longest time, second only to Russia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwe...|
It's funny because I've been reading a book about Churchill that says his failed Norway expedition almost kept him from being elected, but at least he tried to help (together with France).
Anyway, my point is that you guys should try to piss off ughaibu some more because his video links are very entertaining, especially the Xenakis clip.
|Jun-07-18|| ||Diademas: <<WorstPlayerEver:>
However,<Diademas> although sounding a tad arrogant, is right.>|
Thats quite magnanimous of you. I'll try to work on my arrogance. 😎
|Jun-07-18|| ||WorstPlayerEver: Diademas>
Well, I was just plain wrong, because I did not know the exact details involved. My apologies.
"On the longer term ('longer term' not being defined any further by the Germans other than "nach Kriegsende", meaning after the war's conclusion), the German authorities anticipated the direct integration of the Netherlands into the expanding Third Reich."
|Jun-07-18|| ||8284: <Diademas: I'll try to work on my arrogance. 😎> |
Does that mean you're tryin 2 improve/perfect your arrogance?
Just askin 4 a friend ..
|Jun-07-18|| ||ChessHigherCat: Besides the Netherlands, Greater Germania was also destined to include the Fiji Islands and Sheboygan, Wisconsin.|
|Jun-07-18|| ||beatgiant: <WorstPlayerEver>
What's more interesting would be to know the details of what you said about AVRO's actions during the war.|
AVRO "voluntarily sacced" its Jewish employees? This means they terminated their employment, or handed them over to the occupation authorities? What makes you believe it was voluntary? Did the Germans not require it? Did no member of AVRO management object to the decision?
|Jun-07-18|| ||WorstPlayerEver: <beatgigant>
"AVRO-directeur Willem Vogt ontsloeg al op 21 mei 1940 vrijwillig een aantal joodse medewerkers, onder wie Jacob Hamel, Han Hollander, Max Tak, Ida de Leeuw-van Rees, Jetty Cantor, Boris Lensky, Albert van Raalte en Antoinette van Dijk. Ook de joodse voorzitter van de AVRO, mr. Visser, moest vertrekken."
Yet on Monday 21 1940 AVRO CEO W. Vogt voluntarily fired several jewish employees, (....). Also the jewish chairman, Mr. Visser (Mr. Fischer), had to leave.
|Jun-07-18|| ||beatgiant: From the same source, further:
"Maar alle aanpasserigheid ten spijt ging de AVRO op 9 maart 1941 op in de Nederlandsche Omroep onder nationaalsocialistische leiding."
I don't speak Dutch, but I can guess it's saying AVRO ended up under National Socialist leadership since March 9, 1941. But, how to ascribe motivation to people operating under Nazi occupation (cynicism or mere survival)?
|Jun-07-18|| ||ChessHigherCat: The Dutch seems bizarre:
"But despite all adaptability (despite its willingness to collaborate??), AVRO joined the "Dutch Appeal"? under National-Socialist leadership on 9 march 1941.
What does it mean guru WPE?
|Jun-07-18|| ||WorstPlayerEver: <CHC>
Yeah, I never heard of the term 'aanpasserigheid' before. I can only translate it with 'an obsession with adaptability.'
However, I discovered something funny about the guy in the pic: AFJ Portielje.
His son was my history teacher ^^
|Jun-07-18|| ||WorstPlayerEver: PS by the way he told me 'Portielje' comes from 'Portillo' a portuguese jewish name.|
To understand this story one has to know that Amsterdam was built by jewish portuguese refugees. Traders (Sefardiem) who fled for the Inquisition late 15th century.
Therefore the 'rest' of the Netherlands always has had a inferiority complex in relation to Amsterdam.
|Jun-07-18|| ||ChessHigherCat: <WPE> It means that the radio channel AVRO, even though it was willing to collaborate with the Nazis, was still taken over by the official Nazi channel:
Nederlandsche Omroep (Dutch Broadcasting, abbreviated NO, formerly "Rijks Radio-Omroep") was the national broadcasting station in the Netherlands during WW II.
During the first year of the war, the existing broadcasters AVRO, KRO, NCRV, VARA and VPRO, continued to broadcast under the supervision of the Radio Management Office. The ***owners adapted quickly to the censorship and to their agendas*** and used the radio for propaganda. Starting from 9 March 1941, those stations were discontinued and the Rijks Radio-Omroep (Reich Radio Broadcasting) was created, subsequently renamed Nederlandsche Omroep (Dutch Broadcasting). [...] The key positions were occupied by real NSB party members and Nazis. The Director-General of "Nederlandsche Omroep" was the NSB party member Willem Herweijer.
Conclusion: WPE 1, beatgiant 0
|Jun-07-18|| ||WorstPlayerEver: <CHC>
Ah, now I understand. So the term 'aanpassigerigheid' probably was meant in a derogative way.
|Jun-07-18|| ||beatgiant: <ChessHigherCat>
<WPE 1, beatgiant 0>|
What does this mean? I was asking questions and trying to learn something.
|Jun-07-18|| ||ChessHigherCat: <beatgiant: <ChessHigherCat> <WPE 1, beatgiant 0>
What does this mean? I was asking questions and trying to learn something.|
Well you have to admit all but one of your "innocent questions" expressed skepticism about WPE's claim that the Dutch voluntarily sacked its Jewish employees:
<"AVRO "voluntarily sacced" its Jewish employees?> This means they terminated their employment, or handed them over to the occupation authorities? <What makes you believe it was voluntary? Did the Germans not require it? Did no member of AVRO management object to the decision?>
And we confirmed his point of view.
|Jun-07-18|| ||beatgiant: <ChessHigherCat>
<What makes you believe it was voluntary? Did the Germans not require it?> This was German-occupied Europe during WWII, one of the most brutal totalitarian regimes known to history. So, I think it's a pretty natural question. But sure, by definition asking questions is expressing skepticism.|
<Did no member of AVRO management object to the decision?> This remains unanswered. The quote above refers only to the owners. <WorstPlayerEver>, is there any more info on that?
Now, one more question, in case <WorstPlayerEver> might know. What happened to these collaborating radio company owners after the war? Were any put on trial or convicted as collaborators?
|Jun-08-18|| ||ChessHigherCat: <beatgiant: <ChessHigherCat> <What makes you believe it was voluntary? Did the Germans not require it?> This was German-occupied Europe during WWII, one of the most brutal totalitarian regimes known to history. So, I think it's a pretty natural question.>|
Well, collaborators always have a choice, but when the choice comes down to maintaining the status quo with a cushy job as a radio announcer or else being shipped off to the concentration camp, few people are brave enough to go the martyrdom route. If, on the other hand, the choice is between broadcasting vile Nazi propaganda or merely losing one's job, there we have a clear-cut case of collaboration.
A less painful path of resistance would be to run off to England and try to join an insurgency movement, or at least broadcast anti-Nazi programs from abroad, but it may be too difficult to escape.
As to the postwar trials, the old radio channels only remained in business for a year before being taken over by the official Nazi channel, so the ones that lost their jobs and were replaced by official propagandists after a year probably aren't very high on the list of collaborators. On the other hand, if they chose to remain on the Nazi channel after one year, were members of the Dutch fascist party (NSB) and even spiced up their propaganda speeches with incitement to murder and mayhem, that would be a clear-cut case of collaboration, too.
I don't know about whether the postwar trials were held or not but the older Dutch members might recall. You could also look that up yourself.
|Jun-08-18|| ||WorstPlayerEver: <beatgigant>
In comparison to jews, the Dutch were treated with silk gloves by the Germans.
My grandfather was a smuggler during the war and I am quite sure the Germans simply could have him shot any time, but they just let him.
During the war the Dutch also committed sabotage on German material all over the country. Hitler's road project were delayed for instance.
After the war lots of nazis kept their job, because the Dutch needed 'office people.' For instance, a third of the judges were not replaced afaik.. (I would have to do some research to back that up though).
PS I also don't understand the '1-0' thing. Silliness though.
|Jun-08-18|| ||WorstPlayerEver: PPS
These people 'got way with it', because after each war people have a strong tendency to go 'back to normal.' Quite obvious that they also needed a lot of 'qualified' employees.
|Jun-08-18|| ||sneaky pete: For our Dutch kibitzers, here is a radio program from 1988 dealing with the purification of Dutch broadcasters during the German occupation and Willem Vogt in particular:
If you don't want to listen to the entire program, the last 10 or 12 minutes should be enough. It was a farce, but not at all funny, and a shame and a disgrace.
Maybe someone else here will feel inspired to write a summary in English. I don't.
|Jun-08-18|| ||ChessHigherCat: <sneaky pete> Nice goose! Is this the same kind?: https://www.google.com/search?newwi...|
At first I tried to search "Dutch Goose" but there's a restaurant with that name in Menlo Park, so I just got pages and pages of advertisements!
As to the link, once I figured out how to get past the cookie monster on the cookies page, I clicked the video and got some kind of recording of a torture chamber where people were being forced to swallow burning hot mashed potatoes! Just kidding, that's how Dutch always sounds to me, my listening comprehension is horrible! If I ever improve I'll go back to it.
|Jun-08-18|| ||sneaky pete: <CHC> No, the goose is of the Florida Two Month variety. It feeds on alligators, Life Masters and bananas.|
The link is to a radio program. Radio is something like video, but without moving pictures. Some of what you hear comes from recordings (on glass 78 rpm records) of actual radio programs from the early 1940s. You can also hear collaborating technicians testify that, as an act of resistance, they did their best to make the propaganda programs sound as bad as they could. Obviously they succeeded.
|Jun-08-18|| ||ChessHigherCat: <sneaky pete>: A bananaphagic goose, that's pretty scary! And I don't understand how you can play video games on the radio, but it must be one of those lost secrets of the Ancients.|
This is a pretty good book about an American undercover agent in WWII who has a racist radio show but the real purpose is to give signals to the underground depending on his phrasing. Unfortunately, nobody believes him after the war and the US government won't back up his story:
You can choose the Kindle format for $7.99, the paperback for $4.05 or the hardback for $199.99, it's up to you :-)
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 11 OF 11 ·
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