| page 1 of 1; 24 games
|1. Korchnoi vs Karpov
||½-½||37||1974||Karpov - Korchnoi Candidates Final||A17 English|
|2. Karpov vs Korchnoi
||1-0||27||1974||Karpov - Korchnoi Candidates Final||B77 Sicilian, Dragon, Yugoslav Attack|
|3. Korchnoi vs Karpov
||½-½||57||1974||Karpov - Korchnoi Candidates Final||A17 English|
|4. Karpov vs Korchnoi
||½-½||45||1974||Karpov - Korchnoi Candidates Final||C09 French, Tarrasch, Open Variation, Main line|
|5. Korchnoi vs Karpov
||½-½||67||1974||Karpov - Korchnoi Candidates Final||E17 Queen's Indian|
|6. Karpov vs Korchnoi
||1-0||31||1974||Karpov - Korchnoi Candidates Final||C42 Petrov Defense|
|7. Korchnoi vs Karpov
||½-½||48||1974||Karpov - Korchnoi Candidates Final||A17 English|
|8. Karpov vs Korchnoi
||½-½||51||1974||Karpov - Korchnoi Candidates Final||C09 French, Tarrasch, Open Variation, Main line|
|9. Korchnoi vs Karpov
||½-½||41||1974||Karpov - Korchnoi Candidates Final||A29 English, Four Knights, Kingside Fianchetto|
|10. Karpov vs Korchnoi
||½-½||58||1974||Karpov - Korchnoi Candidates Final||C09 French, Tarrasch, Open Variation, Main line|
|11. Korchnoi vs Karpov
||½-½||81||1974||Karpov - Korchnoi Candidates Final||E17 Queen's Indian|
|12. Karpov vs Korchnoi
||½-½||23||1974||Karpov - Korchnoi Candidates Final||C09 French, Tarrasch, Open Variation, Main line|
|13. Korchnoi vs Karpov
||½-½||96||1974||Karpov - Korchnoi Candidates Final||E17 Queen's Indian|
|14. Karpov vs Korchnoi
||½-½||30||1974||Karpov - Korchnoi Candidates Final||C09 French, Tarrasch, Open Variation, Main line|
|15. Korchnoi vs Karpov
||½-½||47||1974||Karpov - Korchnoi Candidates Final||A04 Reti Opening|
|16. Karpov vs Korchnoi
||½-½||67||1974||Karpov - Korchnoi Candidates Final||C09 French, Tarrasch, Open Variation, Main line|
|17. Korchnoi vs Karpov
||0-1||42||1974||Karpov - Korchnoi Candidates Final||E04 Catalan, Open, 5.Nf3|
|18. Karpov vs Korchnoi
||½-½||42||1974||Karpov - Korchnoi Candidates Final||C09 French, Tarrasch, Open Variation, Main line|
|19. Korchnoi vs Karpov
||1-0||79||1974||Karpov - Korchnoi Candidates Final||A45 Queen's Pawn Game|
|20. Karpov vs Korchnoi
||½-½||51||1974||Karpov - Korchnoi Candidates Final||C70 Ruy Lopez|
|21. Korchnoi vs Karpov
||1-0||19||1974||Karpov - Korchnoi Candidates Final||E17 Queen's Indian|
|22. Karpov vs Korchnoi
||½-½||30||1974||Karpov - Korchnoi Candidates Final||A13 English|
|23. Korchnoi vs Karpov
||½-½||29||1974||Karpov - Korchnoi Candidates Final||E17 Queen's Indian|
|24. Karpov vs Korchnoi
||½-½||31||1974||Karpov - Korchnoi Candidates Final||D25 Queen's Gambit Accepted|
| page 1 of 1; 24 games
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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|Mar-31-14|| ||Petrosianic: <I believe this match was the first to win 5 games or the best of 24.>|
<So it was close, at 3-2 with 19 draws, but I think it could have been closer!>
Yeah, it could have been a 12-12 tie. Good thinig it wasn't, because the tiebreak rules for the 1974 series a coin flip.
This was an extremely hard fought match. If you play over the games, you'll see that they <average> almost 50 moves each. In fact, some of the <decisive> games drag the average down (like Game 21, won by Korchnoi in 19 moves)
The biggest repercussion of the match was the draw total. A lot of people didn't bother to play over the games, they just looked at that total; 19 draws!?, and freaked out.
Worst of all, there was a movement, led by Charles Kalme, trying to make the case that all those draws had nothing to do with Karpov and Korchnoi's playing styles or their parity, or anything like that. It was the match conditions that FORCED those draws. Kalme actually had the incredibly unscientific idea that there was a FIXED "Draw Expectation" that was totally determined by match conditions, and was unaffected by playing styles, eras, or anything else. The snake oil solution was that a Pure Wins system had a lower "Draw Expectation", and Pure Wins system and would solve the problem. (he was shilling for Fischer's match conditions, if you hadn't guessed). Kalme genuinely believed that a 10 wins match in 1975 wouldn't go longer than 23 games (because that's how long they went in the 19th century, and the draw expectation doesn't change).
So, the score of this match in 24 games was +3-2=19. Three years later, these same two players played a Pure Wins match; the format that was supposed to guarantee fighting chess. The result after 24 games: +4-2=18. Almost no difference.
Then 7 years later, Karpov-Kasparov I put the final nail in the coffin of the Pure Wins system. In a Pure Wins match, the Kalme crowd couldn't conceive of any other strategy than by going for those wins as quickly as possible. The idea of playing like Kasparov did; hunkering down in the trenches and waiting for the other guy to go over the top, was inconceivable to them. Even when people suggested it, they dismissed it. (No, no, nobody would play like that).
Not everybody was fooled, though. One letter to the editor of Chess Life & Review at the time commented that anybody who thought Karpov was playing differently in this match than he always did is kidding himself.
|Mar-31-14|| ||diceman: <Petrosianic: <I believe this match was the first to win 5 games or the best of 24.> |
<So it was close, at 3-2 with 19 draws, but I think it could have been closer!>
Yeah, it could have been a 12-12 tie. Good thinig it wasn't, because the tiebreak rules for the 1974 series a coin flip.>
Yeah, and the tall tale goes, this guy was going to decimate Fischer.
Of course by 1978, Karpov showed his true strength and dominance, along with the wealth of experience he had gained.
Tied 5-5 going into the last round of Baguio City.
|Mar-31-14|| ||diceman: <Petrosianic:
Then 7 years later, Karpov-Kasparov I put the final nail in the coffin of the Pure Wins system. In a Pure Wins match, the Kalme crowd couldn't conceive of any other strategy than by going for those wins as quickly as possible. The idea of playing like
Kasparov did; hunkering down in the trenches and waiting for the other guy to go over the top, was inconceivable to them. Even when people suggested it, they dismissed it. (No, no, nobody would play like that).>
Pure wins worked for Fischer.
...but I can see why it would be a challenge for others.
|Mar-31-14|| ||Jim Bartle: Good post above, <petrosianic>.|
|Mar-31-14|| ||Petrosianic: I'm not rebutting Fischer, by the way, I'm rebutting Kalme. The 10 Wins system might very well have been a good system for Fischer. But Kalme's argument was that it was a good system for <EVERYONE>, and would force lots of decisive games no matter who the players were. That's why this article (the longest that Chess Life had ever published) was published 6 months after Karpov became champion, and about a side issue (the match had derailed over 9-9, not over the 10 Wins). But Kalme was pushing hard for a Pure Wins system to be used in future matches (even if Fischer himself wasn't involved in them), because he saw it as a solution to the draw problem. The jury is in. He was very wrong about that.|
If you can get a hold of the November 1975 issue of <Chess Life & Review>, you can see Kalme's argument laid out in great detail. There was supposed to be a Part 2 to the article, but it was cancelled without explanation.
|Mar-31-14|| ||offramp: As I have written elsewhere at cg.com, I believe Fischer might have won a 1975 match 10-6 with 48 to 52 draws. But if he had gone behind early on then he would have stopped playing for some reason. But he was NEVER going to play in 1975.That's a fact.|
|Mar-31-14|| ||Petrosianic: With hindsight, it's clear Fischer wasn't going to play. But at the time, there were a lot of people who thought he was only leaving FIDE, not chess. Robert Byrne had a big New Zork Times article about "Fischer's Fear of Losing", which took the "Fischer has left chess" point of view. And there was an article written by (some doctor whose name I can't remember, and whom I never heard of anywhere else), called "To Dare To Be Audaciously Different", which took the view that Fischer was going to defend his title outside of FIDE. (Chess Life & Review meant to publish both articles, but couldn't get the rights to Byrne's).|
The view was plausible at the time. Fischer met with Karpov several times, ostensibly to play a match outside of FIDE. According to Karpov, he once got as far as having the contract in front of him, and the pen in his hand. But he backed out every time. The time he backed out with the pen in his hand, it was over the question of what to call the match (seriously).
At the last second, Fischer demanded that it be called "The Professional World Chess Championship". Of course, Karpov couldn't go along with that. The Soviet Federation maintained the fiction that their players weren't pros. Campomanes said to just sign the (blanking?) contract, and they'd agree on a name later, but Fischer wouldn't go along with it.
|Dec-08-16|| ||offramp: I am against the total wins system, although it had advantages for sponsors with very big pockets.|
Out of interest, does anyone here have an opinion of what Carlsen - Karjakin World Championship (2016) would have panned out like if it had been the first to, say, 3 wins?
How many games would it have taken?
Who would have won and with what final score?
|Dec-08-16|| ||Petrosianic: Well, you've got to remember that in Fischer's time, people thought that the Pure Wins system would force more aggressive play. Charles Kalme even mis-managed and threw out data shamefully to try to argue that a 10 Wins match wouldn't last longer than 23 games because that's how long they lasted in the 19th century. The idea was actually to produce shorter matches, not longer ones. As it turned out, the sponsor with the very big pockets was the Soviet government. I heard they had to cancel three new missile systems as a result of KK-I.|
|Dec-08-16|| ||Lambda: I don't see any real reason to think either would have played significantly differently in such a match, bar game 12. I think you'd see the same sort of stuff, just more of it, with Carlsen to win 3-2 after, let's say, slightly more than 20 games.|
|Dec-08-16|| ||Petrosianic: Kalme fooled himself into thinking that Karpov and Korchnoi played differently because the match conditions (Best of 24 or 5 wins) forced them to.|
The jury came in 3 years later. In this match, the score was +3-2=19 after 24 games. In their next match, played under a Pure Wins format; the format that guaranteed fighting play, the result after 24 games was +4-2=18. Almost identical. Kalme was nowhere to be found to admit the error, because he was more than just wrong, he juggled his data to reach the wrong conclusion, and simply threw out no less than three entire World Championship matches entirely because they didn't yield the kind of data he wanted from them. A good mathematician doesn't throw away data simply because he doesn't like it.
|Dec-08-16|| ||Petrosianic: It wasn't just World Championship matches, either. This Candidates Final is maybe his worst offender. Kalme used it to "prove" that the Wins or Points system guaranteed the least aggressive play of all, and forced the K's to play more cautiously.|
But there were 6 other Candidates Matches played in 1974, under the exact same system, and all 6 yielded the exact opposite result. Kalme simply threw out all six matches and drew conclusions from this one that he liked. I'd love to have met Kalme to try to figure out if he was flat out lying, or if he was so partisan that he simply didn't realize that he was doing everything that he as a mathematician had been trained not to do.
|Dec-08-16|| ||Howard: Regarding Petrosian's remark from March, 2014, I believe that there WAS a Part 2 to Kalme's article, but it was run in October, 1975---one month before this mammonth article in November.|
|Dec-08-16|| ||Petrosianic: There was supposed to be a Part 2, but it was cancelled without explanation. It may have been written, but it was never published.|
|Dec-08-16|| ||Howard: I'm not so sure, by the way, that it's fair to try to draw conclusions from just the first 24 games of the 1978 match, i.e, omitting the remaining eight games. Perhaps Karpov and Korchnoi may have taken into account energy and stamina when agreeing to draw some of those first 24 games.|
In other words, God knows how many games the 1978 contest could have ended up taking....especially when you consider the 1984 Moscow Marathon. Both Karpov and Korchnoi may have been thinking in 1978 that trying to squeeze water from stones (i.e, playing on and on in drawn positions) might not have been advisable.
|Dec-08-16|| ||Petrosianic: It WOULD be fair if Kalme's premise was correct: That there was a fixed and unalterable "Draw Expectation" percentage that is completely determined by match conditions.|
Of course we know that there are lots of other factors that determine the likelihood of a draw. Parity, era, playing styles and so forth. But Kalme denied them all as factors.
|Dec-08-16|| ||Howard: No time to reply right now. In the meantime, please check the October, 1975 issue of CL&R. I'll do so myself when I get home.|
|Dec-08-16|| ||Petrosianic: I think the full article is in the November 1975 issue, but I could be mis-remembering. There might have been a column or two in October as a buildup to the article.|
|Feb-26-18|| ||Allanur: Many things can be added to the description of this event. Why is it so short? For ex: Korchoi has an entire chapter (18th chapter) dedicated to this match in his book "Chess is my life." Of course it can be rejected as "possibly biased" but at least we could add it as "according to Korhcnoi..."|
Korchnoi, in his book says that he did not agree to play in Moscow, Baturinsky who was head of sports committee of the soviet union just added an additional article stating his consent to play in Mosvoc to the paper Korchnoi signed previously
Again, according to Korchnoi, the usual time for the games was 4.30 p.m but Karpov insisted on games be played at 5 o'clock for this match. Reporters opposed the idea, chess players opposed the idea, organizing committee opposed the idea, only president of the USSR chess federation supported Karpov and so was his demand accepted.
Korchnoi says all conditions of this match was made in favour of Karpov and as a reason he says "because Karpov was pure Russian, representative of a working class, was born in the centre of Russia,he was younger, he recently became a member of the communist party and the president of youth department of the party was his countrymen and friend."
According to Korchnoi's book, on the eve of the match, one of the leading soviet magazines featured Karpov's photo with a caption "I fear no one and against everyone I play for win."
There is also their interviews prior to the match in the book of Korchnoi.
Korchnoi says the federation did everything they could to put psychological pressure on Korchnoi that they managed to make Korchnoi suspect his second which was not a strong player either.
Korchnoi says All-Union Chess federation gathered a team of powerful chess players to help Karpov. Petrosian, Averbakh, Tal and Botwinnik were the ones to advise Karpov.
Korchnoi says he recieved threatining letters as well. He feared something might happpen to him in the streets.
After the match was over says Korchnoi, he shook hands with Karpov and then left the stage but the news report did not broadcast the part they shook hands, news just reported Korchnoi leaving the stage. Korchnoi comments it was done specifically to create an image of Korchnoi behaving badly.
There are many points written by Korchnoi. In short Korchnoi says organizing committee favoured Karpov and did so many injustice in favour of Karpov.
|Jul-05-18|| ||ewan14: Karpov was the Party man
Was Geller not supposed to have helped Karpov against Spassky in the semi ?
|Jul-05-18|| ||Howard: Geller, I recall, defected from Spassky just prior to the '74 Candidates. Robert Byrne mentioned it in his book on the '74 Candidates.|
|Jul-06-18|| ||Howard: It was argued that back then that politics was not the only reason that most Soviets wanted Karpov to win this match.|
Another reason was that should the winner go on to play Fischer and lose, at least the player who lost (Karpov or Korchnoi) would undoubtedly learn a lot about Fischer's play and thus be better prepared in the event of another match against him come, say, 1978...
...however, given Korchnoi's rather advanced age in 1974, 43, many strongly suspected that if he played Fischer in '75 this would probably be his only chance to become WC---if he lost the match, he would miss the boat completely as far as becoming WC.
But, Karpov was only 23 at the time--if HE lost to Fisher, he would have been in a much more favorable position to use any garnered knowledge for another match, come '78.
At any rate, we all know what happened. Karpov won the match and thus the right to play Bobby--he would either become WC in '75 by beating Fischer, or the '75 match would turn out to a "training" match for another assault come '78.
Seem to recall that neither of those scenarios played out though.
|Jul-06-18|| ||Joshka: <Allanur> Are you doubting the version laid out by Korchnoi?? I find it totally plausible. Thus cementing his eventual defection. Why would the Soviets side with HIM, when they have a young man 20 years his junior primed to get the title back, where it belongs!!;-)|
|Jul-07-18|| ||RookFile: I don't think you get smashed by Fischer and say gee whiz, I'm more prepared for next time.|
|Jul-07-18|| ||HeMateMe: Spassky would have lost even worse had he played Fischer in1975.|
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