|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 3 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Jul-09-11 | | Creg: I too went with 17.Nxf6. I eschewed 17.Bg5 too quickly...sigh, but that is why I come here every day and check these puzzles, as well as David's excellent analysis, and Once's fantastic musings. |
 |
Jul-09-11
 | | Jimfromprovidence: I saw 17 Bg5.
click for larger view
Now, with the support of he d5 knight, white has the threat of 18 Bxf6, forking rook and queen. If 17…Bxd5 18 Bxd5 follows below, white has two threats, 19 Rxe5+ and 19 Bxa8.
click for larger view
If 18…Be7, white ends up with a small exchange advantage after 19 Bxa8 Qxa8. |
|
Jul-09-11
 | | kevin86: Black's solitary pawn will win the game. |
|
Jul-09-11
 | | morfishine: <sevenseaman>...<At the moment I do not have much clue how best to proceed> Looks like Black is dead lost in your (b) variation. I'd like to see what the engines think. If nothing else, good eye for latching onto what seems to be the best continuation: <17.Bg5> also identified by many others [excluding me] |
|
Jul-09-11
 | | Patriot: I set a time limit of 10 minutes using a chess clock. The best I could come up with is 17.Nxf6+ Qxf6 18.Bxe6 Qxe6 19.Bf4 and after 19...Bg7/Bd6 20.Bxe5 Bxe5 21.f4. After the time limit was reached I spent a few minutes looking at 17.Nf4. For example, 17...Bxc4 18.Nxg6 hxg6 19.Qxh8. But I think 18...Bf7 is the defense to consider. 17.Bg5! did not occur to me. |
|
Jul-09-11
| | Patriot: A very important thing I didn't notice is that white is down a piece for two pawns. Next time I just need to spend a moment to count the material since that does affect analysis. |
|
Jul-09-11
 | | scormus: After my embarrassing disaster yesterday I'm nervous of posting any suggestion, but after looking at and rejecting the 2 N+ sacs and Rxe5 the move I chose was <Patriot> 17 Nf4 expecting 17 ... Bxc4 18 Nxg6 Bf7 Then 19 Rxe5+ fxe5 20 Qxe5+
If ... Be7 21 Qxh8+ Kd7 22 Qd4+
If ... Kd7 21 Nxh8
I thought this cannot be right since Johnny Nunn gave Bg5! as best and a small adv for W so I checked the 17 Nf4 line with Rybka who picked 18 ... hxg6 (I guess damage limitation) and just over half-pawn adv for W. Even so she preferred 17 Bg5 with more than one pawn adv to W. 17 Nf4 might not be the best move but it seems to be <second to Nunn> |
|
Jul-09-11
 | | Jambow: <swr> I can't defend as black when I use the same sequence you used, which is what I found myself. I would like a stronger players opinion. |
|
Jul-09-11
| | Patriot: <scormus> <17 Nf4 might not be the best move but it seems to be <second to Nunn>> Good one! :-) 17.Nf4 is a nice idea. It's too bad I only noticed it when I was down to a minute or so and decided on 17.Nxf6+ instead. After 17.Nf4 Bxc4 18.Nxg6 Bf7 19.Rxe5+, 19...Be7 is best according to Houdini. It says that 20.Qf3 or 20.Qf5 (+1.46) are the only winning moves and neither one looks obvious to me! 20.Rxe7+ is only slightly better for white (+0.25). |
|
Jul-09-11
| | Patriot: <Jambow> I don't know if I'm any stronger so I looked at a possible line and verified it with Houdini. 17.Rxe5 fxe5 18.Bg5 is very dangerous but Houdini agreed that 18...Qc8 is best. It's not easy to see a win after 19.Nf6+ Kf7 or 19.Nb6 Qc6 (the move I saw, but Houdini likes 19...Bg4 much better). It says that 19.Nf6+ is best and completely even (0.00). |
|
Jul-09-11
 | | Peligroso Patzer: Interesting position, but NOT good as a puzzle. (Too unclear.) Nunn’s comment is paradoxical. (Query the source?) He begins by saying, “Black has a clear advantage …”, but later in the same paragraph concludes that, if White had played 17. Bg5!, then “[i]t turns out that even against the best defense White obtains some advantage.” Rather obviously, if 17. Bg5! would have guaranteed White “some advantage”, then Black does not have any advantage at all (much less a “clear advantage”) after 16. … Be6. |
|
| Jul-09-11 | | stst: Sat, V. Diff:
One line out of many:
17.Rxe5 fxe5
18.Bg5 Qc8
19.Nf6 Kf7
20.Bxe6+ Qxe6
21.Re1 Be7
22.f4 Bxf6
23.Bxf6 Qxf6
24.f5 Re8
25.Rf1 Kf8
26.fxg6 hxg6
27.RxQ+ Kg8
28.Qxg6#
Of course, whether Bk is posting up the toughest defense will change the course. One other line starts with 17.Nxf6+ but after being refuted by QxN, W has no good follow-up (Bg5, Qf7, etc.) |
|
Jul-09-11
| | DarthStapler: I didn't get it but after 17. Bg5 Bxd5 18. Rxe5+ Be7 I can't see how white wins |
|
Jul-09-11
 | | Once: <Peligroso Patzer> Yes, I wondered about Nunn's comments too. What I think he meant to say was that <after 17. Nxf6+> black has a clear advantage. This would fit with his statement - "as the three pawns do not provide enough compensation for the piece" - which only really applies after 17. Nxf6+. In other words, the position after 16...Be6 (17. with white move) leads to a small white advantage, but only if he plays 17. Bg5. To be fair to Nunn, he doesn't say that 17. Bg5 wins out of hand. He just says it is the best move, which I think is a fair assessment. We are also not seeing his comments in context. It may be that when he wrote them he explained his thinking in more detail and that all we are seeing is a truncated version. Some of Nunn's usual clarity may have been lost in translation. |
|
Jul-09-11
| | scormus: scormus: <Patriot 19 ... Be7> Thanks. I should have considered that. After Rxe7+ the win of the BQ is at the cost of the loss of WQ. R vs. N+2p is balanced, even though the 3+3 Wps are better the the 4 B solitons. Nxe7 is no better as the WRe5 remains en pris to the B f-pawn. Shame. I agree, neither Qf3 nor Qf5 are at all obvious |
|
Jul-09-11
| | morfishine: <scormus> I don't feel so bad as I went with <17.Nf4> too (along with <Patriot>) which forces black to surrender an exchange. The key here is can white now at least draw?
I left you a message at yesterdays POTD (regarding ranks) that may relieve some of your discouragement. |
|
Jul-09-11
| | Jimfromprovidence: As <Once> stated earlier, the position in which black takes the sacrificed bishop offer is very tricky to analyze. <tacticalmonster> had this interesting line. <17 Bg5 fxg5 18 Rxe5 Kd7 19 Rxe6! Kxe6 20 Nf4++ Kd6 21 Nxg6 hxg6 22 Qxh8- White is simply up two pawns with an attack against Black's exposed king>. But what happens if black plays 21...Qe8 instead?
click for larger viewWhite's knight is pinned as black threatens 22...Qxg6. It took me quite a while to figure out a winning path for white and I believe that there are three different first moves for him to get there. |
|
| Jul-09-11 | | LIFE Master AJ: <<<Jul-09-11
Jimfromprovidence: As <Once> stated earlier, the position in which black takes the sacrificed bishop offer is very tricky to analyze.> But what happens if black plays 21...Qe8 instead?> >I'd say 22.Qg4!, Qxg6; 23.QxP/d4+ (I even checked it with Fritz.) |
|
| Jul-09-11 | | James Bowman: <<Jambow> I don't know if I'm any stronger so I looked at a possible line and verified it with Houdini.> Thanks <patriot> I see perhaps black could survive with correct play then the material advantage would even it up. Thanks for looking I can't use engines on this computer and the attack looks promising for white. |
|
| Jul-09-11 | | James Bowman: <STST> <23.Bxf6 Qxf6> at this point in your sequence I think Bd3 attacking the pinned knight on g6 keeping more material and not centralizing blacks Queen looks better. Never mind shallow patzer just found a refutation ;o] Oh well if it were easy we would all be grand masters. |
|
| Jul-09-11 | | wals: 17.Nxf6, -1.22, blunder.
Dr Nunn was right on the money.
Analysis by Rybka 4 x64: d 21 : 1hr 29 min
1.  (1.13): 17.Bg5 Bxd5[] 18.Rxe5+ fxe5 19.Bxd8[] Rxd8 20.Bxa6 Bg7 21.Bd3 0-0 22.f3 Rd6 23.a4 e4 24.fxe4 Nf4 25.Qf3 Bc6 26.a5 Rh6 27.Rf1 Be5 28.Rf2 Kh8 29.Bc4 Ne6 30.Qa3 Bxh2+ 31.Kf1 Rxf2+ 32.Kxf2 2.  (0.63): 17.Nf4 Bxc4 18.Nxg6[] hxg6 19.Qxh8[] Kd7 20.Bf4 Bd6 21.Qg7+ Qe7 22.Qxe7+ Bxe7 23.Bxe5 fxe5 24.Rxe5 Rb8 25.b3 Bf6 26.Ree1 Be6 27.Rad1 Bf5 28.Rd2 Rc8 29.c4 Kc6 30.f3 d3 31.g4 Bc3 32.Red1 |
|
| Jul-09-11 | | solskytz: doesn't 17. Bg5 Bxd5 lead to 18. Rxe5+ winning the d5 bishop? |
|
| Jul-09-11 | | BiteByBits: very nice game i did not see Bg5... |
|
Jul-09-11
 | | An Englishman: Good Evening: Oh, well--winning streak ends at 12. |
|
Jul-09-11
 | | sevenseaman: In terms of time you may not be able to imagine the effort I put in to get a win for White. I wrestled all day with Crafty but did not succeed against the weirdly good defense responses it finds to any new attack ideas. I had noted <tacticalmonster>'s line; <a) 17 fxg5 18 Rxe5 Kd7 19 Rxe6! Kxe6 20 Nf4++ Kd6 21 Nxg6 hxg6
22 Qxh8- White is simply up two pawns with an attack against Black's
exposed king>
For me, it had already been refuted by Crafty when it played 21...Qe8 rather than hxg6, as noted by <jimforprvidence> too.
click for larger view In the labyrinths of long analysis, I do think I came across situations where White could force a draw by repetition but I wasn't too intent upon merely a draw. I'd be interested if any line leading to a White win is found. Though I did try some different ideas, most of my effort was based on <21. Bg5>. The win aspect could unfold following some newer idea. We should not be biased merely because GM Nunn endorses <21. Bg5> as the best move. <morfishine> Thanks. You are being kind and partial to me in saying I latched on to <21. Bg5>. Its an idea most solvers have hit upon rather easy. There are other ideas almost as valid.
<Once> has posted some that have been verified by Fritz and appealed to me. |
|
|
|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 3 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Annotations by 