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|Jan-31-04|| ||Dick Brain: 47 Qb5! is a famous move by Zukertort often found in tactics collections. But should it really win? I'm not so sure because the type of piece-up engame that comes out of this is tough to win. A knight has a tough time against a rook pawn. I don't think White could have won had Black played better to get that rook pawn a little farther along. I think 52... Kd3? might have been a blunder in highsight. Black must chase the knight in order to advance the rook pawn. 52... Kd5! and if 52 Nb7 then Kc6. Ultimately, when the white king is distracted Black switches over to gobble up the kingside pawns. |
|Feb-05-04|| ||BiLL RobeRTiE: what's wrong with 47. Qb8+? |
|Feb-05-04|| ||Dick Brain: 47. Qb8+ Kd7 and the passed c pawn is lost next move. I don't think 47. Qb8+ is promising. |
|Feb-05-04|| ||notsodeepthought: I'm not convinced Qb8+ would win - how does white contnue after Kd7? |
|Feb-05-04|| ||FryGuy1013: Does it? Crafty analyzes:
47. Qb8 Kd7 48. c8=Q Qxc8 49. Qxa7+ Kd6 and position is equal
47. Qb5 forces the capture (any other move and the queen is lost)
The rest of the moves until 51. Nxb5 are forced, and white is left with a knight and three pawns versus four pawns endgame, which is winnable as the black king can't defend both sets of pawns on either side of the board. The pawn can't race to the other side because the white king can catch it, and eventually the a pawn will fall. The extra knight puts enough pressure on the kingside pawns that they crumble, as seen in this game.
|Feb-05-04|| ||Dick Brain: <FryGuy1013> The game continuation in hindsight might not be very good play. If you own Fundamental Chess Engings look at diagrams 3.25-3.29 of similar positions where the defender has good drawing chances.
The difficulty with a knight trying to stop a rook pawn is that the Black king can perpetually chase the knight which is trying to block it. |
Of course, having said all that. I now tend to believe that yes it is a win for White if he plays right. He should be able to bring his king back to his a corner while finding a way to block of the kingside in a way that Black cannot munch of his pawns.
|Feb-05-04|| ||youngplayer11: Wht abot 47.Qb4? |
|Feb-05-04|| ||catfriend: Why noy 47..f7 48.e7+ f6 and how do you continue? |
|Feb-05-04|| ||kevin86: Nice combo! I didn't see the delayed action sac. I saw b5,but didn't see the following moves. Zuk was a great player,but just short of the "Austrian Morphy". |
|Feb-05-04|| ||hiddemen: I agree with youngplayer11 47 Qb4. Threatens mate, the only way black can stop it is qd7, then 48 c8=Q Nd8 49 Qxd7 and white is up a queen |
|Feb-05-04|| ||trguitar: 47. Qb4 fails to . . .Qc2+ with draw by repetition.
Crafty likes the following better than 47. Qb5:
47. Nb4 Qd7 48. Qe3 Kf7 49. Na6 Qc8 50. Qxa7 Ke7 51. Qb8 Kd7 52. Qb5+ Ke7 53. Qc6 g6 54. Kf2
+2.39 depth=14 2/36
|Feb-05-04|| ||JustAFish: How about 65 ... a5 instead of 65 ... Kg2? it seems white can't do much to prevent the pawn from becoming a major nuisance. |
|Feb-05-04|| ||Dick Brain: I believe White wins the queening race in that case. |
66. Ne4+ Ke2 67. Nxf6 a4 68. Nd5 a3 69. Nb4
|Feb-05-04|| ||Sneaky: After 51.Nxb5 I would think the position must be won for White. I'm not very strong in the ending, but here's my inclination of how to play it: I'd blockade the a-pawn with my knight, then I'd play the "my king vs. your king" game on the kingside. My king would the "big bully" of that conflict because I would always have an extra tempo in hand with my knight. If Black tries to rush over to the a-file, I would follow him with my king, and sure--he could make me sac my knight for that a-pawn--but then I'd have the centralized king who would get back over the k-side first. Is there a flaw in my understanding of how to convert this? |
|Feb-05-04|| ||hart: Would 47. Qa4 work as well as 47. Qb5, or is this variation somehow inferior? |
|Feb-05-04|| ||trguitar: 47. Qa4 leads to a draw by repetition, too.
...Qxa4 48. c8=Q+ Kf7 49. Qb7+ Kg8 50. Ne7+ Kf7 51. Nd5+
|Feb-05-04|| ||patzer2: If 65...a5, then White plays 66. Ne4+! The White Knight now captures the Black pawn at c-6 , which allows the White pawn at c-5 to advance and Queen. And the Knight still has enough time left to block the advance of the Black passed pawn.|
According to Fritz 8, best play would continue 65...a5 66. e4+ e2 67. xf6 a4 68. d5 a3 69. f6 d2 70. b4 c3 71. a2+ b3 72. f7 xa2 73. f8 b3(+19.84 @ 20/60 depth & 913k/s).
Note that Black's King does capture the White Knight on the a-file, but in doing so temporarily blocks its own passed pawn. This loss of tempo (king blocking the advance of its own passed pawn), gives White time to Queen the pawn at c8 and use the newly promoted Queen to run down the Black passed pawn. After snatching the Black pawn on the a-file with the Queen, Black's King will gobble up the remaining black pawn, allowing the White pawn on the h-file to advance and Queen.
|Feb-05-04|| ||Lawrence: Junior 8 finds exactly what Zucker did through to move 51 in a smidgeonth of a second and evaluates it at over +2. Gives 47.Nb4 only a +1. |
|Feb-05-04|| ||WMD: It's worth pointing out that Zukertort missed 45.Qc3!. This gives up a piece with check but wins on the spot. 45..Qxd5+ 46.Qf3 and whether black retreats his Q to c4, c5 or d7, White has the killer Qb7. |
|Feb-05-04|| ||patzer2: <Dick Brain> If I understood your suggested improvement, you meant to indicate 53...Kd5! (not 52...Kd5 60. Nc7+ ) gives Black excellent drawing chances.|
Although the ending is complicated, with lots of opportunity to go wrong, it appears Black has a draw with your 53...Kd5! recommendation.
Fritz 8 analyzes 53...Kd5! 54. Nc8 Ke4 55. Nb6 a5 56. Kf2 h5 57. h3 h4 58. Na4 hxg3 59. Kxg3 f5 60. h4 g6 61. Nb2 Kd4 62. Kf3 Kc3 63. Na4+ Kb4 64. Nb6 Kc5 65. Nd7+ Kd4 66. Ke2 <not 66. Kg3 a4 and Black is winning> Ke4 67. Nf8 Kxf4 68. Nxg6+ Kg4 69. Ke3 a4 70. Kd2 Kh5 71. Nf4+ Kxh4 72. Ne6 a3 73. Kc3 a2 74. Kb2 a1Q+ 75. Kxa1 f4 76. Nxf4 =(0.00 @ 20 depth & 843kN/s).
Anyone with any other ideas? Is it possible today's problem (47? -- White to win) is cooked (as a draw)?
|Feb-06-04|| ||Mr. SUAVE: White is in a process of promoting his pawn to a queen. So, therefore, White is ahead of materials. White did is a mistake is not a good puzzle anyway white lose his advantage although he win!!! But what if Black chases his knight... Qb8+ is winning |
|Feb-06-04|| ||Dick Brain: <patzer2> yes that's what I meant to say. 53 Kd3 leaves the rook pawn highly unadvanced and so the knight can leave the pawn at a critical time, do some damage, and still return to stop the passed pawn.|
I recently also broke down and bought a copy of Fritz 8 and I'm still having a blast setting up critical endgame positions from Fundamental Chess Endings and trying to beat it. When I get home from work tonight I'll try playing Fritz from both sides after 53...Kd5 and see what happens.
Did you run the analysis for a long time? I've tried this sort of engame before on Fritz and it usually doggedly sticks to an advantage for white evaluation as long as a material plus exists even, for instance, when the position is hopelessly blocked.
|Feb-06-04|| ||Dick Brain: <WMD> very nice! had you seen that shot in analysis before or did you just notice it? We could end up having another puzzle of the day from the same game. |
|Feb-07-04|| ||Dick Brain: <patzer2> My demi-game when I played Black went 53... Kd5 54. Nc8 a5 55. Kf3 Kd4 56. Ke2 a4 57. Kd2 which then allowed me to go in for the drawing pawn munch with 57 .. Ke4 and 58.. Kf3 etc. Herr Fritz still gave it a good try by setting up a devilish breakthrough trap later with a Knight sacrifice, but it was easy enough to see though. |
|Feb-07-04|| ||patzer2: <Dick Brain> Glad you were able to confirm the draw with your recommendation of 53...Kd5! using Fritz 8. In analyzing this position, I did a deep analysis move-by-move with Fritz 8, often letting it run to at least 14 depth or greater (20 depth or greater in really unclear positions) to get a reliable result. Your game against Fritz 8 probably accomplished the same thing. I've also been using Fritz to verify winning techniques against the online version of Encyclopedia of Chess Endgames at http://www.logicalchess.com |
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