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Predrag Nikolic vs Jeroen Piket
Corus (2000), Wijk aan Zee NED, rd 5, Jan-20
Queen's Gambit Declined: Orthodox Defense. Rubinstein Variation Flohr Line (D62)  ·  1-0
ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Oct-04-07  karnak64: Qd8 was easy enough to see, and the move I'd have played naturally OTB. The rest was quite a chore for me -- I wonder if I would have mucked it out?
Oct-04-07  twin phoenix: i will echo helanubo and say that i too have learned alot from dzechiels posts. Include MAJ's posts and they are two that i am always interested in what they have to say!! thanks fellas from us patzers! your tips are what make this a great site.
Oct-04-07  MostlyAverageJoe: <twin phoenix> Hey, thanks. I feel honored by being mentioned along David.

I just hope that everyone is clear that I use computer help on daily basis.

Generally my first posts are brain-only (as evidenced by mis-typed moves :-) and later ones are software-aided. Sometime I depart from that pattern and neglect to mention it, though ...

Oct-04-07
Premium Chessgames Member
  al wazir: <MAJ>: I tried to make two points. One is the same as yours: Getting the first two moves doesn't count for much. Most of us would have made those moves with no sweat.

So the puzzle really should start at move 61. If it had, I might have found the solution (though I'm not saying I would). But if you accept the first point, then it isn't appropriate to ask whether Nikolic or I or anyone else visualized 62. Rd8 when playing 59. Qd8. It wasn't necessary. That was my second point.

Oct-04-07  MostlyAverageJoe: <al wazir> I think we can agree that this was a badly posed puzzle. The first moves were obvious, and most people would play them OTB, so obfuscating the real problem by forcing us to visualize the unavoidable position was pointless. It would be better to start 2 moves later and post it on Wednesday.

But if you say <getting the first two moves doesn't count for much>, then what would you consider to be necessary before one can claim a solution to the puzzle?

Oct-04-07
Premium Chessgames Member
  fm avari viraf: Though, the material is = for both the sides, White enjoys more mobility than Black & can easily penetrate the vulnerable Black's fortress. Hence, the routine manouevring 59.Qd8 threatens mate on next move ...Rf7 otherwise Black will be mated in 2 moves 60.Rh8+ Kg7 61.Qd4+ & Black is defenseless.
Oct-04-07
Premium Chessgames Member
  whiteshark: Black missed the opportunity to equalize completely by playing <53... f4!=>


click for larger view

===
Agree with <aazqua: <... Another "notable" game by Nikolic which involves grinding, unimaginitive play coupled with obvious blunders by his opponent...>>

Oct-04-07  willyfly: After 58 moves material is dead even and today I'm in time trouble even before I start.

59 ♕c6 and if 59 ♕xc6 60 bxc6 produces an advanced passer. Let's look

-----
so simple - that's why I missed it

Oct-04-07  MostlyAverageJoe: <willyfly> your advanced passer would not go far - you have no time to get your rook behind it, while black rook can stop it immediately. You'd need to consider the king's race to help eradicating/passing he pawn before embarking on that route, analyze the situation of the kingside pawns, black's ability to create his own passer after a6 and b5, etc.

And of course, black is not obliged to help creating the passer: 59...Rc7 for me, if I'm black.

Oct-04-07
Premium Chessgames Member
  patzer2: For today's puzzle solution, Nikolic's 59. Qd8! creates a mating threat that requires Black to give up decisive material so his helpless King can survive a few moves.

After 59...Rf7 60. Rh8+ Kg7 61. Qd4+ Rf6 62. Rd8! , the pin on the Knight coupled with the threatened double attack (63. Rd7+) wins decisive material. here if 62...Qf7, then 63. Rd7 pins and wins the Queen.

Oct-04-07  Fezzik: MAJ,

Re: 59....g5.

Yes, the move leads to a forced mate, but I thought it was necessary to examine alongside 59...Rf7 in order to prove the accuracy of 59.Qd8.

All,

There are times when I don't read long reams of analysis, whether they're produced by computers or stream-of-conscious humans. But please, there's no reason to belittle the works of others. At least they are taking the time to show us how they work through a problem.

As dzechiel himself pointed out, he gets many problems wrong. I am much less likely to trust someone who said they solved the puzzle <without> any additional commentary.

Thanks to all those who share their ideas here, it's part of what makes these puzzles interesting!

Oct-04-07
Premium Chessgames Member
  OBIT: Medium difficulty, eh? It took me an hour to work this out, moving the pieces. I gave up trying to do this one in my head. The move that gave me so much trouble is 59...Kh6 -- 59...Rf7 60. Rh8+ Kg7 61. Qd4+ Rf6 62. Rd8 I saw fairly quickly. However, I had a much harder time with 59...Kh6, eventually coming up with 60. Rh8+ Rh7 61. Qd2+ Kg7 62. Qd4+ Kh6 63. Qe3+ Kg7 64. Re8! Qd5 (only move - 64...Kf6 65. Qe5+ Kf7 66. Qe6+ Kg7 67. Re7+) 65. Qe7+ Qf7 (or 65...Kh6 66. Qg5+ Kg7 67. Re7+ Kh8 68. Qf6+ Kg8 69. Qxg6+ Kh8 70. Re8+) 66. Qd8! and now (a) 66...Kh6 66. Qg5+ Kg7 67. Re7 (b) 66...Qf6 67. Rg8+ Kf7 68. Rf8+ (c) 66...Qc4/b3/a2 67. Re7+ mates or wins the queen. Phew!
Oct-04-07
Premium Chessgames Member
  OBIT: Looking at an analysis from <MostlyAverageJoe> much further back, I see 61. Rg8! wins much more quickly. Well, this proves I didn't use a computer. :)
Oct-04-07  beginner64: <posoo: who else among us is confronted with the nagging suspicion that dzechiel looks at the answer to the puzzle before>

Posoo, I have only been on this forum for 6 months, and I do not share your suspicion at all. I do not know dzechiel, but I do like reading his analysis. Sometimes he is right, sometimes not (perhaps right on more occasions than me, but that is besides the point). What would he (or anyone else) stand to gain by doing that? I don't think he gets any ELO points on this forum.

Oct-04-07  aazqua: Baffling. Another "notable" game by Nikolic which involves grinding, unimaginitive play coupled with obvious blunders by his opponent. First Piket throws away a pawn for nothing, then he gets it back while disrupting his king side structure, and finally he avoids 53 qe1 ch, 54 q*q r*q, kg2 re7 which is dead drawn. Feh.
Oct-04-07  MostlyAverageJoe: <Fezzik> I hope that my response to 59....g5 (or anything else I wrote) was not what prompted you to post the comment about belittling the works of others.

If that comment was addressed to me, feel free to elaborate on my forum (or via email - see my profile), since I defnitely did not intend to create such impression, and I apologize if I did.

Oct-04-07  avidfan: A game against CM3000 reminds me of today's puzzle


click for larger view

36.Kh2 Qa4 37.Re7 Bf7 38.Qd8+ Kg7 39.Rd7 Qxc4 40.Rd2 Qf1 41.Rg2+ (catches Black in a mating net; so Black gives up queen for rook) Qxg2 42.Kxg2

Oct-04-07
Premium Chessgames Member
  al wazir: <MostlyAverageJoe: what would you consider to be necessary before one can claim a solution to the puzzle?>

Getting 61. Qd4+ and 62. Rd8 (regardless of whether the puzzle starts on move 59 or move 61).

Oct-04-07  MostlyAverageJoe: <al wazir> We're in a 100% agreement then.
Oct-04-07  ForeverYoung: Hey! Off to a 4 for 4 start this week! It took me a while but I found the Rd8! idea.
Oct-04-07  not yet a patzer: I really appreciate the <Daily Duo> as well, and both <dz> and <MAJ> have sent me personal responses in the past to try to help me improve my pathetic chess knowledge. They certainly did not have to do that, and it was more than I ever expected.

I guess its good that a <possum> comes along now and then to jar us into some appreciation for our puzzle chat mentors (PCM).

Oct-04-07  znprdx: There was nothing easy about this problem ( I explored 61. Qd6 ) yet looking at the comments it seems some people like to delude themselves. Of course the problem only begins with 61. Qd4+ at which point there a couple of ways to win a rook which are quite pretty. The solution of finding 62.Rd8 at 5 ply is far from obvious from the initial point because it requires the art of temporizing which seems too easy to be true...given the solution did not even occur in the game itself.
Oct-04-07  not yet a patzer: HEY <ForeverYoung> I WOULD HAVE HAD A 4 FOR 4 START, TOO!!! If it weren't for Monday, Wednesday and Thursday.
Oct-05-07  TheaN: Damnit! Qd8 is so frikkin obvious but I got stumped by BOTH Kh6 and Rf7. No points for me.
Jan-12-08  aazqua: Baffling. Another "notable" game by Nikolic which involves grinding, unimaginitive play coupled with obvious blunders by his opponent. First Piket throws away a pawn for nothing, then he gets it back while disrupting his king side structure, and finally he avoids 53 qe1 ch, 54 q*q r*q, kg2 re7 which is dead drawn. Feh.
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