< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 9 OF 9 ·
|Jun-24-12|| ||CHESSTTCAMPS: White has a bishop for a knight, an outside passed pawn, and an attacking focus on f7. Black also has very active pieces except for Rf8. I remember first seeing this one from Fischer's early years a long time ago, and recall the key move, but not the exact way the game finished. In any case, it's critical to keep in mind the vulnerable back ranks for both sides.|
30.Rxf7!! goes directly for the target, with the primary threat of 31.Rf5+ Kh8 32.Rxf8#. White can deal with each of black's counters:
A) 30... Rxf7? 31.Ra8+ forces mate.
B) 30... Qxd5? 31.Rxf8+ Kxf8 32.Qf1+ (protecting back rank; of course not 32.exd5?? Rc1+) Qf7 (otherwise 33.exd5 wins) 33.Ra8+ Ke7 34.Ra7+ Ke8 35.Rxf7 wins.
C) 30... Rc1+ 31.Qf1!! (A brilliant resource! 31.Rf1+?? Kh8! 32.Ra8 [Re1 Rxe1+ 33.Qxe1 Qf4! 33.g3 Qf3+ 34.Kg1 Nf2! wins] Rxa8 33.Bxa8 Qf4! wins for black) Rxf1+ 32.Rxf1+ Qxd5 33.Rxf8+ Kxf8 34.exe5 with a won endgame (R+P for a N)
C.1) 31... g6 (or h6) 32.Qxc1! Qxc1 33.Rc1+ K-moves 34.Rxc1 wins a rook.
C.2) 31... Qf6 32.Rxf6+ forces mate,
C.3) 31... Nf6 33.Rxf6+ Rf7 (Qxd5 34.Rxf8#) 34.Ra8+ Rc8 35.Rxc8#
C.4) 31... other 32.Rxf8#
D) 30... Nf6 31.Rxf6+ Qxd5 32.Rxf8+ (exd5?? Rc1+) Kxf8 33.Qf1+ Qf7 34.Ra8+ wins as in B.
E) 30... g6 31.Qf1! (Rf5+? Kg7 32.Ra7+ Kh6 and the back rank problem again burns white) Rfc8 32.Rf5+ Kg7/h8 33.Rxg5 Rc1 34.Kg1 Ne3 35.Qxc1 Rxc1+ 36.Kf2 leaves white a rook ahead.
E.1) 31... Rxf7 32.Qxf7+ Kh8 33.Qg8#
F) 30... h6 31.Qf1! (Rc7+? Qxd5! 32.exd5 [Rxc3 Qe5] Rxc7) Rxf7 32.Qxf7+ Kh7 33.Qg8+ Kg6 34.Qe8+ Kh7 (Kf6 35.Qe6#) 35.Bg8+ Kh8 36.Bf7+ Kh7 37.Qg8#
Hmmm - I see I'm missing 31... Rc1 in lines E and F. White gets 2 Rs for the Q, but perhaps 31.Rxf8+ (followed by Qf1+ and Rf4, keeping a pawn) is best. I've exceeded my time limit, so I'll review now. An excellent candidate for insane....
|Jun-24-12|| ||MarkFinan: Wow!! He was 14 years old when he played this???? That Is Insane!|
|Jun-24-12|| ||Pawn and Two: I had seen this game before, so it was easier for me to find 30.Rxf7!. However, it took me a while before I found or recalled the move 31.Qf1!, after 30.Rxf7 Rc1+.|
It is interesting to analyze why 30.Bxf7+? does not give white any winning chances. White would even lose after 30.Bxf7+? Kh8 31.Be6? Qf4! or 30...Rc1!.
|Jun-24-12|| ||Patriot: Material is even.
30.Rxf7 Rxf7 31.Ra8+ mates in a few.
30.Rxf7 Rc1+ 31.Rf1+ Kh8 (31.Qf1 Rxf1+ 32.Rxf1+ Qxd5 33.Rxf8+ Kxf8 34.exd5 ) 32.Re1 looks like the ball is in black's court.
30.Qxg4 Qxg4 31.Rxf7 Rc1+ 32.Rf1+ Kh8 33.Rxc1
30.Bxf7+ Kh8 31.Be6 Rc1 looks imposing.
So it appears <30.Rxf7 Rc1+ 31.Qf1! Rxf1+ 32.Rxf1+ Qxd5 33.Rxf8+ Kxf8 34.exd5 > is key.
30...Qc1+ 31.Qf1 Nf2+ 32.Rxf2+
|Jun-24-12|| ||chrisowen: Elegant aint it good to be bombing back over these classic ones in |
Bobby team compute the brickd top isn't it addressing down oh the
needs often the position he pierces the veil hoping to make big
rookf7 stride secure the bacon and it does the nut in Rc1+ Qf1!
|Jun-24-12|| ||chrisowen: Lodge the black rook appeals alive a glad welcome waste in want not |
dynamite in Fischer you " bim " build in mind an approach to
deconstruct in weak it points here time many og hurt under Bobby
spell et alia fall it in the wee hours James' back cricked maybe
baby h5 cruel lame watch over sat i lead the cause too fightback
starts here treble cull h5 Qxc1 Qh4 Rxf8+ kh7 h3 Qg3 hxg4.
|Jun-24-12|| ||Jimfromprovidence: <Morfishine>
<However, on your comment after <30...h6>, Black is losing after <31.Rc4 Rxc4 32.Qxc4 Rxf7 33.Qc8+ Kh7 34.Bxf7>
Doesn't Black's drawing chances increase dramatically after <34...Nf6>?>
Both <Dakgootje> and <Eyal> discussed the correct 35 Qf5+ response.
click for larger view
After 35...g6 36 Qxg5 hxg5 37 Bd5 white’s in great shape.
click for larger view
He can push his a pawn and black’s knight gets tied up to prevent its promotion (or black gives up the knight for the pawn). As a result, white’s bishop and king can start picking off pawns.
|Jun-24-12|| ||chrisowen: <Jimfromprovidence> Black mind to throw in the towel ask queen too many questions it ar pluck up the courage not easy came or Bobby across from you strike the band it is mellow yellow in appearance undulate in Qf1 the tables have changed giving James the press in erstwhile advantage white in got d5 to strongs a piece in uhmbrage again white ghost in low ok fry it h6 in?|
|Jun-24-12|| ||agb2002: A very familiar position but I'll give it a try.
White has a bishop for a knight.
The convergence of the rook on f1 and the bishop on f7 suggests 30.Rxf7, threatening 31.Rf5+:
A) 30... Rc1+ 31.Qf1 (31.Rf1+ Kh8 32.Rd1 (32.Re1 Qh4) 32... Rxd1+ 33.Qxd1 Nf2+)
A.1) 31... Rxf1+ 32.Rxf1+
A.1.a) 32... Kh8 33.Rxf8#.
A.1.b) 32... Qxd5 33.Rxf8+ Kxf8 34.exd5 + - [R+P vs N].
A.1.c) 32... Rf7 33.Rxf7 and Black is mated or loses the queen.
A.2) 31... Nf6 32.Rxf6+ wins.
A.3) 31... h5 32.Qxc1
A.3.a) 32... Qxc1+ 33.Rf1+ Kh8 34.Rxc1 + - [N+B+P vs N].
A.3.b) 32... Qh4 33.h3 and Black's attack goes nowhere.
B) 30... Qxd5 31.Rxf8+ Kxf8 32.Qf1+ Qf7 33.Ra8+ Ke7 34.Ra7+ wins.
C) 30... Qc1+ 31.Qf1
C.1) 31... Qxf1+ 32.Rxf1+ Rf7 33.Ra8+ and mate next.
C.2) 31... Rxf7 32.Ra8+ Rc8 33.Qxc1 wins.
D) 30... h5 31.Rf5+ Kh7 32.Rxf8 (32.Rxg5 Rc1+) + - [R+B+P vs N].
|Jun-24-12|| ||Eyal: <D) 30... h5 31.Rf5+ Kh7 32.Rxf8 (32.Rxg5 Rc1+) + - [R+B+P vs N].>|
This line is actually winning for Black after 32...Rc1+ 33.Rf1:
click for larger view
33...Qf4!! with a double attack on f1 & h2.
But it's quite instructive (just like the line 30...Rc1+ 31.Rf1+?? Kh8, already mentioned several times) - since one of the interesting features of this combination is that White's king position is quite perilous, so he might easily be the one succumbing to Black's attack if he isn't super-alert.
|Jun-24-12|| ||Patriot: <agb2002> Very well done!! I didn't see the resource you found in <A)> (32.Re1 Qh4).|
In <A.1.c)> I think your line is winning which is "good enough". 33...Rf7 34.Ra8+ Qd8 35.Rxd8# leaves no argument.
I calculated <B)> and <C> lines but didn't record it. Apparently I had forgotten those lines.
I completely missed the ...h5 defense.
Good job on such an accurate analysis!
|Jun-24-12|| ||Patriot: <Eyal> I think you are correct about line <D)>. But still most of his analysis is very accurate.|
|Jun-24-12|| ||dufferps: I can't help wondering why Sherwin didn't play 30. ... Ne3. How would Fisher answer that? Discovered check is spoiled by Nxd5, and meanwhile black threatens Qxg2#|
|Jun-24-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <thomasstonk: Fischer did well, when he tried this, but the practical problems do not indicate that the position is a correct puzzle. If "30.?" is understood as "White moves and wins", then it has no solution, and if it is understood as "find the best move for White", then it is not clear what the solution will be. So, as a puzzle it is incorrect in my view.>|
It's interesting that you should bring this up, as I had quite a lengthy conversation with another notable kibitzer on this subject not too long ago.
I do agree that this puzzle is theoretically not the best possible puzzle out there; this said, this is a game that was played at classical time controls and therefore possesses that element of time-pressure, and practical Chess.
Yes, there is no time control here for us CG solvers and yes the puzzle has a resource that allows Black to play on, but the practical strength of this puzzle is inmense.
Therefore from a human/practical view it is a correct puzzle; from a theoretical point of view, although flawed in that Black has resources that allow him to play on, I will say that it is also a correct puzzle: If only in that White keeps a distant passed pawn and that modern Chess engines are finding resources for White to attempt to push on for the win.
This established, let's say that after the dust settled the engines ultimately proved that after 30...h5 the game was a draw, I would still say that you are wrong - or at least, not in tune with the praxis side of Chess - in saying that this puzzle is incorrect as it a great practical puzzle which sets a lot of difficulties on the player of the Black pieces.
|Jun-24-12|| ||Sastre: <dufferps: I can't help wondering why Sherwin didn't play 30. ... Ne3. How would Fisher answer that?>|
30...Ne3 31.Qxe3 Rc1+ (31...Qxe3 32.Rf5+; 31...Rxe3 32.Rf5+) 32.Qxc1 Qxc1+ 33.Rf1+ wins.
|Jun-24-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <Eyal: The interesting thing about the 33.Qc8+ line is not that it's objectively best, but rather that it explains why 30...h5 is so much better for Black than 30...h6.>|
As I said earlier, the 33. Qc8+ line is worthy of being investigated, no question; there is no problem with this whatsoever. This said, Eyal, I thank you for your note here.
<Eyal: (Btw - in both cases, of course, the idea is to meet 31.Qf1, as played in the game, with 31...Kh7 - when 32.Rxf8 is met by 32...Rc1)>
I definitely saw ideas similar to this when I was solving the puzzle: That's how I found 30. Rxf7 Rc1+ 31. Qf1 h5 32. Qxc1!, which turned out to be what actually transpired in the game.
|Jun-24-12|| ||Patriot: <LTJ> Well said! I think you both have valid points, but I have to side with you on this.|
Houdini (at least at 20-ply) says 30.Rxf7 is best. And even though it isn't technically winning it is quite a move because of all the tricks involved.
For me this gets down to why we do puzzles. I do them because I want to improve as an analyst and get better at finding the best move OTB. This position is rich in possibilities because of dual back rank weaknesses and discovered checks and forks. And in order to become a really good player, you have to learn to play with the kind of aggression Bobby Fischer demonstrated here.
Also, in order to have a fairly equal game black had to play accurately to maintain a balance. He slipped under pressure and Fischer went on to win. Would that have happened if Fischer had played the slow moving 30.Ra7? I think Fischer would've had more draws playing this way.
|Jun-24-12|| ||Eyal: Footage of 14-year-old Fischer smiling when he shows 31.Qf1 on the demonstration board can be seen at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o2o... (from 6:50 to 6:55); here's the image: http://www.echecs-photos.be/BobbyFi...|
|Jun-24-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <Patriot: <LTJ> Well said! I think you both have valid points, but I have to side with you on this.>|
<Houdini (at least at 20-ply) says 30.Rxf7 is best. And even though it isn't technically winning it is quite a move because of all the tricks involved.<>>
Absolutely, a great practical shot!
<For me this gets down to why we do puzzles. I do them because I want to improve as an analyst and get better at finding the best move OTB.<>>
Well said! Improving as a player, analyst and sound/strong OTB tactician is a great reason to solve these daily puzzles on CG!
|Jun-24-12|| ||agb2002: <Eyal> Yes, it seems that after 30... h5 a bit of profilaxis is necessary with 31.Rc4 Rxc4 32.Qxc4 Rxf8 33.Bxf7+ Kh7 so that the a-pawn can become a major factor.|
<Patriot> Thank you, but I should have been more careful with line D.
|Jun-24-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <scormus> Thanks for the kind mention; and I'm glad that we are in agreement here!|
|Jun-24-12|| ||sevenseaman: Without actually joining in I have been following the debate very keenly. |
Black has a fantastic resource in 30...h5 but Sherwin missed it OTB. That failure can be reasonably said to be a direct result of 14 yr old Fischer's compelling 'table presence'.
My first hurdle was that a flaw in the correctness of the puzzle was hinted at but I did not see anywhere in the comments a concrete line to prove it.
It was only put in moves by <Eyal> in a comment on <agb2002>'s line D);
< <Eyal>: <D) 30... h5 31.Rf5+ Kh7 32.Rxf8 (32.Rxg5 Rc1+) + - [R+B+P vs N].>
This line is actually winning for Black after 32...Rc1+ 33.Rf1 Qf4!! with a double attack on f1 & h2>
A lot of analysis work has gone into this puzzle in getting at the truth. I feel grateful to all those who put in the toil.
In the practical sense Fischer had the win but the truth came out only in a kind of laboratory that marks an elaborate and leisurely after-analysis.
|Jun-25-12|| ||morfishine: Yes <Jimfromprovidence> I didn't appreciate the strength of <35.Qf5+>|
Nice work, I am frequently taken by your posts
|Jul-02-12|| ||thomastonk: <LTJ> Well, many things you replied are quite right, but once more you state that I am wrong, calling the puzzle incorrect, and that is <unfriendly>. The correctness of a puzzle depends only on the correctness of its solution. I don't like to be attacked for this simple principle. And I don't attack you for being satisfied with a puzzle lacking a perfect solution.|
|Apr-12-13|| ||Geronimo: Utterly fearless chess. Came to this looking to study the Najdorf - convinces me of the need to study Fischer.|
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