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Robert James Fischer vs Mikhail Tal
"French Drawings" (game of the day Oct-15-2007)
Leipzig ol (Men) fin-A (1960), Leipzig GDR, rd 5, Nov-01
French Defense: Winawer. Retreat Variation Armenian Line (C18)  ·  1/2-1/2
ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

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Robert James Fischer vs Mikhail Tal (1960) French Drawings


Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 8 OF 8 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Feb-24-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  Joshka: <Retireborn> Well Ray might know for sure, but he's NOT that old;-)LOL think he started playing in the late 60's....but being grown up and living in Europe I'm sure if he were to look at that pick, he'd tell us. The more I look at that pic, the more I'm sure it's Uhlmann. But I would trust Ray's answer for sure.
Feb-24-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  Joshka: I posted the pic on Ray's page, this will get settled once and for all :-) Heck even Nigel would know too.
Feb-24-16  luftforlife: Might the onlooker with the widow's peak sporting the dark-on-dark shirt-jacket combo be IM Karl Burger, M.D.? I've read that he once taught Fischer at the Manhattan Chess Club, and there seems to be a resemblance to a later photograph. Best to all. ~ lufty
Feb-24-16  Sally Simpson: Hi Joshka,

The page 4 source who first suggested it maybe Julius Szabo has actually played both Julius & Lazlo Szabo.

Feb-24-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: <Geoff....(Have you noticed every time Perfidious mentions his blitzing with Tal the score changes. In 2012 Tal won 9-1. 2013 Tal won 8-2, in 2014 Tal won 7-3, last year Tal won 6-4. I'm looking forward to his next post ;) )>

I won 11-0, laying 5-1 time odds.

Feb-25-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  TheFocus: <perfodious> <I won 11-0, laying 5-1 time odds.>

Yeah, but you had an ally in the bottle.

Mar-03-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  maxi: It is clear that when Tal played 16...BxR he had to have foreseen the manoeuvre 18...Rxg+, ...Qe5, ...QxN, ...Qg4+. Remarkable.

By the way, in My 60 Memorable Games Fischer says that 19.KxB loses after 19... Rxh2 20.Qf7 Rh1+, which "... produces a winning attack from nowhere!". But I fail to see anything after 21.Kg2 Qh2+ 22.Kf3 Qh3+ 23.Kf4 Qh4+ 24.Ke5. The White knight is excellently place and the White f2 Pawn can move to f4 to hamper checks. If Black is not careful he may actually lose. Look up <dale2222222>'s comment in this thread.

Mar-03-16  Howard: Soltis called this draw one of the most "overrated" games in history, and, frankly, he's right. It was a good game, but not worth all the hype in my view.

Incidentally, Maxi, he does point out that 19.Kxc1 (or KxB) would NOT have lost, after all, contrary to what Fischer said. To be fair, though, the path to a draw would have been rather thorny, so Fischer's 19.Kh1 was best.

Mar-03-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  maxi: Howard, you mean 19.Kf1. Thanks for the info, I have not read Soltis' book.

When going over Fischer's games one see's he avoids confusing (unclear?) lines.

Objectively speaking, Fischer's move 19.Kh1 is better, since it leads straight to the draw. But it is possible to consider 19.Kf1 a better move, in a different sense: it is a very devious move. It is easy for Black in this line to overreach and die. It is Black, not White, who has to play carefully. You see, White pieces are far too close to the Black King for its confort.

Jul-09-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  morfishine: Exactly what does "objectively speaking" mean anyways? This looks like another attempt by an imitator annotator striving to gain credibility in a field they are not qualified to comment on in the first place
Aug-10-16  posoo: MORFUDLAIN is a SNOBB

in dis context OBJECTAVLY SPEKING means dat it is a SURE WAY to get da draugh if u think dat is da best result. and he is rite!

he made a good post do NOT be jells.

Sep-15-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  thegoodanarchist: <but Fischer got the long title on his placard.>

Tal got the <better> title on his placard.

Sep-15-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  thegoodanarchist: <Howard: Soltis called this draw one of the most "overrated" games in history, and, frankly, he's right. It was a good game, but not worth all the hype in my view.>

Soltis never played at this level, so he wouldn't know. And neither would you, actually.

Sep-30-16  Howard: One would suspect that Soltis COULD have played at this level...if he had a computer to help him, naturally.

Still say Soltis was correct when he stated in his book that if the two players in this game had been almost anyone else, this game would have been quickly forgotten.

Oct-01-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  HeMateMe: <I'm still blaming HeMateMe.>

You're not the first person to say that.

Oct-01-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  HeMateMe: was Leipzig in East or West Germany?
Oct-01-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  Gregor Samsa Mendel: <HMM>--East Germany.
Nov-08-16  Saniyat24: What are the other interesting options of White in the 16th move instead of Nf7?
Nov-25-16  amaurobius: <Joshka: I posted the pic on Ray's page, this will get settled once and for all :-) Heck even Nigel would know too> Ray has replied on 24 November - he thinks Forintos or possibly Eising.
Nov-25-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  roberts partner: <Joshka: I posted the pic on Ray's page, this will get settled once and for all :-) Heck even Nigel would know too> Ray has replied on 24 November - he thinks Forintos or possibly Eising.

Neither Forintos nor Eising was present at Leipzig 1960. The correct identification of the dark-suited spectator is given on page 4 of this thread.

Feb-17-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  keypusher: <Howard: Soltis called this draw one of the most "overrated" games in history, and, frankly, he's right. It was a good game, but not worth all the hype in my view.>

Tal and Fischer both included it in their best games collections. It's probably worth a fair amount of hype.

Feb-17-17  Howard: Regarding the above comment, Soltis did concede one point about that game, and that was that neither Fischer nor Tal "could have been accused of self-promotion" because they were both known for being very objective about their games.

Soltis, however, also argued that the game actually had a few errors in it that Fischer (I've never seen Tal's comments, though.) had missed. He also stated (and I think Soltis was dead-on)that probably the main reason this game got so much undue attention was because of the strong rivalry between these two.

In other words, if the two players in this overrated encounter had been almost anyone else, this game would have been forgotten decades ago.

Feb-17-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  keypusher: <Soltis, however, also argued that the game actually had a few errors in it that Fischer (I've never seen Tal's comments, though.) had missed.>

This game has <lots> of errors. But it's legendary.

Lasker vs Schlechter, 1910

< He also stated (and I think Soltis was dead-on)that probably the main reason this game got so much undue attention was because of the strong rivalry between these two.>

Does Soltis think that is why Fischer and Tal themselves were impressed?

<In other words, if the two players in this overrated encounter had been almost anyone else, this game would have been forgotten decades ago.>

Games are rarely evaluated independently of the circumstances in which they were played.

Nov-18-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  Octavia: Fancy - a chess Olympiad in Leipzig, DDR! I was 5 then, learned chess from 1 of my big bro & played it with family, friends & in pubs until I went to sleepy Scotland in 1970 where I learned that you could play chess in clubs & competitions. Chess was a well kept secret.
Nov-18-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  maxi: Surely this is a fascinating game. Perhaps some of the negative comments come from overexposure. You tend to be less impressed with something you are very used to.
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