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Robert James Fischer vs Mikhail Tal
"Running on M.T." (game of the day Jul-25-09)
Curacao Candidates (1962)  ·  Sicilian Defense: Old Sicilian. Open (B32)  ·  1-0
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Last move:

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Given 31 times; par: 108 [what's this?]

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Robert James Fischer vs Mikhail Tal (1962)

Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 4 OF 4 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Mar-03-14  RookFile: This all looks like very deep stuff. One can understand Fischer's reluctance to slug it out tactically with Tal when a positional path was available.
Mar-04-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  kwid: Here is another look at 12.exd5 instead of Bxe7. Contrary to Naka's view about Fisher I think that those two players were very gifted players and would they have had access to computer guidance as available to all players now, they would be the top candidates for the world crown. Unfortunately the cold war mottling had a devastating effect on Fisher for which he needed physiological help to keep him out of politics. Instead he was used as a pawn in the east west struggle for which he was ill prepared and thus had to suffer the consequences for growing up as a child prot間閑 with a one sided mind track seemingly stuck on chess. His ignorance due to an apparent lack of education to deal successfully with his non chess perception affecting his life style rests on the shoulders of those capable people around him. He did not deserve such a shameful treatment to have a disgraceful life ending.

(496) Robert James Fischer - Mikhail Tal [B32]
Curacao Candidates Willemstad CURACAO (11), 19.05.1962

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 e5 5.Nb5 a6 6.Nd6+ Bxd6 7.Qxd6 Qf6 8.Qd1 Qg6 9.Nc3 Nge7 10.h4 h5 11.Bg5 d5 12.Bxe7

[12.exd5 Nb4

(12...Nd4 13.Bd3 Bf5 14.Bxf5 Nexf5 15.Qd3 f6 16.Be3 Qxg2 17.0𢠢 Qf3 18.Ne4 Qe2 19.Qxe2 Nxe2+ 20.Kb1 Ned4 21.Bxd4 exd4 22.Ng3 Nxg3 23.fxg3 Ke7 24.a4 b5 25.Rxd4 Kd6 26.Rb4 Rhb8 27.c3 bxa4 28.Rxa4 Kxd5 29.Re1 a5 30.Kc2 Rg8 31.b3 g5 32.Rd4+ Kc6 33.Re6+ Kc7 34.Rxf6 gxh4 35.gxh4 Rg2+ 36.Kd3 Re8 37.Rfd6 Rg3+ 38.Kc4 Rc8 39.b4 axb4 40.cxb4 Rf3 41.Re6 Kb7+ 42.Kd5 Rf1 43.Ke5 Rg8 44.Rd7+ Kc8 45.Rh7 Re1+ 46.Kf6 Rf1+ 47.Ke7 Rg4 48.Rxh5 Rxb4 49.Rh8+ Kc7 50.h5+)

13.Rc1 Bf5 14.d6 f6 15.dxe7 fxg5 16.Bc4 Rc8 17.Bb3 Nc6 18.hxg5 (18.Kf1 g4 19.Qd5 Qf6 20.Qd2 Qxe7 21.Nd5 Qd8 22.Qe1 Rh6 23.Ne3 Bh7 24.c3 Kf8 25.Kg1 Bd3 26.Rd1 Rd6 27.Rd2 Na5 28.Nf5 Bxf5 29.Qxe5 Rxd2 30.Qxf5+ Qf6 31.Qxc8+ Ke7 32.Qc7+ Ke8 33.Qc8+ Rd8 34.Qe6+ Qxe6 35.Bxe6 Ke7 36.Bf5 Rd2 37.b4 Nc4 38.Kh2 Kf6 39.Bb1 Rxf2 40.Re1 Nd6 41.Kg3 Rd2=)

18...Qxg5 19.00 Nd4 20.f4 Qxe7 21.Re1 Bg4 22.Qd3 Nxb3 23.axb3 Rd8 24.Qg6+ Kf8 25.Rxe5 Rh6 26.Qe4 Re6 27.Rxe6 Qxe6 28.Qxe6 Bxe6 29.Rd1 Rc8 30.Rd2 Bf5 31.Kf2 g6 32.Ke3 a5 33.Ne4 Rc7 34.c3 Re7 35.Rd4 Kf7 36.Kf3 Rxe4 37.Rxe4 Bxe4+ 38.Kxe4 Kf6 39.Ke3 Kf5 40.Kf3 g5 41.fxg5 Kxg5 42.Kg3 h4+ 43.Kh3 Kh5 44.g3 hxg3 45.Kxg3 Kg5 46.c4 Kf5 47.b4 axb4 48.Kf3 Ke6 49.Ke4 Kd6 50.Ke3 Kc5 51.b3 b5=]

12...d4 13.Bg5 dxc3 14.bxc3 Qxe4+ 15.Be2 f6 16.Be3 Bg4 17.Qd3 Qxd3 18.cxd3 Bxe2 19.Kxe2 0𢠢 20.Rad1 Ne7 21.d4 Nd5 22.Rc1 Rhe8 23.Rhd1 f5 24.Bg5 Rd7 25.dxe5 Rxe5+ 26.Kf3 Re4 27.Rd3 Rc4 28.Rcd1 Rxc3 29.Rxc3+ Nxc3 30.Rc1 Rc7 31.Bf4 Rc6 32.Be5 Nd5 33.Rd1 Nf6 34.Kf4 g6 35.f3 Nd7 36.Bd6 Rc2 37.g3 Re2 38.Kg5 Re6 39.Bf4 Nf8 40.Rd6 a5 41.Kh6 Re2 42.Rd2 Re7 43.Bd6 Rh7+ 44.Kg5 Rf7 45.Rb2 f4 46.Bxf4 Rf5+ 47.Kh6 b5 48.Bd6 b4 49.g4 Rxf3 50.g5 Ne6 51.Kxg6 Rd3 52.Be5 Re3 53.Kf5 Nf8 54.Rg2 Rf3+ 55.Bf4 Kd7 56.g6 Ne6 57.g7 Rxf4+ 58.Ke5 Rf8 59.gxf8Q Nxf8 60.Kd5 a4 61.Rg7+ Ke8 62.Kd6 b3 63.a3

10

Mar-04-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: <kwid> What <is> Naka's opinion of Fischer?
Mar-04-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  kwid: Mar-04-14
<Premium Chessgames Member perfidious: <kwid> What <is> Naka's opinion of Fischer?>

I read somewhere about his believe that Fisher's style does not measure up to the current top elite players.

But I cannot recall the exact words as written on that site.

Mar-04-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  tamar: If it was Reddit, this was the quote:

<NoveltyAccount67

How do you think Fischer would do against top players like yourself, Carlsen, or Kasparov? How would Morphy do?

GMHikaru
Fischer would almost certainly lose to all of us, but this is due to the fact that the game has so fundamentally changed. If Fischer had a few years to use computers, I think he would probably be on the same level.>

Mar-04-14  RookFile: As I said before - Fischer with access to a computer? Forget about it. There has never been a more fanatically motivated player, ever. A few years? The guy went from 1800 to US champ in 1 year. It wouldn't take him that long.
Mar-17-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  LIFE Master AJ: # 95 in the Soltis book.
Mar-17-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <Rookfile> About the only thing I would wonder about is whether Fischer would make use of computers at all, at least initially. After all, this is someone who often rejected the help of seconds. And, with adjournments effectively eliminated, there would not be a need or opportunity to use computers during games. So it might take some time for, say, a circa 1973, 30-year old Fischer who was magically transported to 2014 to 搕rust computers, and it might take a loss to a computer-savvy opponent who unleashes a computer-generated TN on him.

And computers are easy to use. Heck, if I can figure them out, anyone can, particularly if they are motivated to do so, as Fisher would certainly be, even if maybe not initially. But with his opponent also using computers, any advantage in using them would be cancelled out, at least until Fischer caught up with modern opening theory and came up with some new opening theory of his own. I would love to see how Fischer would handle the White side of the Ruy Lopez against the modern Berlin Defense!

Mar-17-14  Petrosianic: The USCF provided Fischer with a computer and a second for his planned match with Anand in 1990. There's no reason to think he wouldn't have used them.

But he would have used a computer more effectively than your average fish who quotes an eval as gospel.

Mar-17-14  jdc2: kingscrusher has a video analysis of this game on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjlA...

Mar-17-14  RookFile: <After all, this is someone who often rejected the help of seconds.>

Only because they were usually not strong enough help him. Bill Lombardy brought the coffee, for example, but that's about all he did.

Mar-17-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  TheFocus: Kavalek was Fischer's secret second in the 1972 match.
Mar-18-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  LIFE Master AJ: Lombardy was OK. I remember him playing in the World Open.

He was bored, and reading the book, "Jaws," while he destroyed just about everyone.

Mar-18-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <Rookfile> Sure, but Fischer thought that everyone was his inferior. It抯 a state of mind. Why wouldn't he think, at least until he convinced himself otherwise, that computers were his inferior either? Remember, this would be a person that would be transported in time into the present, with no previous experience with computers, except possibly the laughable versions (compared to the top players) of the early 1970s.
Mar-18-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  Shams: I'm sure you all remember when Anand met Fischer. His story sheds a little light on how much faith Fischer had in engines.

<<Interviewer>: Were you tempted to whip out a pocket chessboard and challenge him to a quick blitz game?

<Anand>: No, because he whipped out his pocket chess set first and we started to analyse some recent games I'd played.

<I>: Really?

<A>: Yes, I showed him some of my games from Wijk aan Zee and tried to share some interesting developments. He was sort of able to follow everything he hadn't lost his sharpness for chess but his methods were a bit dated. In that sense he had fallen behind.

<I>: How do you mean?

<A>: Well, he had some suggestions, and he was sort of in the ball park but when I would tell him that the computer says white is winning here, for me that was a sign to move on but for him it was a starting point to argue with me! [Laughs]. I found it difficult to say to him 'No, no, no these computers are really strong. You shouldn't be arguing with them!"'>

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...

Of course, after a spell of working with engines he'd probably have become more of a believer.

Mar-18-14  RookFile: Why wouldn't he think that? Because first and foremost Fischer was a competitor. I'm sure that in the privacy of his home Fischer would play against the computer, and see it's strengths.

I was just reflecting upon the popularity of the Ruy Lopez Berlin variation. The type of game that that produces is right in Fischer's "sweet spot" - logical, not crazy tactical. I would have loved it if today we could see Fischer on the white side of that opening. He would play and exhaust every last possibility in his quest for a win.

Mar-28-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  thegoodanarchist: <<GMHikaru Fischer would almost certainly lose to all of us, but this is due to the fact that the game has so fundamentally changed. If Fischer had a few years to use computers, I think he would probably be on the same level.>

RookFile: As I said before - Fischer with access to a computer? Forget about it. There has never been a more fanatically motivated player, ever. A few years? The guy went from 1800 to US champ in 1 year. It wouldn't take him that long>

Exactly! Naka is delusional if he thinks Fischer would "probably" be on "the same level" after a few years. His ego keeps him from the truth: Naka would be roadkill to Fischer in such a scenario. Not even a bump on Bobby's way to the title.

Mar-28-14  Petrosianic: It doesn't matter. Either way, we're comparing hypoethical players (a Fischer that might have existed) to real players (the Nakamura that actually does exist), which is pointless. If we compare real players to other real players, it's quite possible that the real Nakamura might have beaten the real Fischer (and he'd certainly have beaten the real Philidor), but regardless, Naka isn't as great as either one of them. He hasn't made anywhere near the same contributions to the game that Fischer or Philidor made.

At best, Naka has mastered the lessons that Fischer and Philidor taught. But where are Naka's lessons?

Mar-28-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: <(Fischer) would have used a computer more effectively than your average fish who quotes an eval as gospel.>

Indeed he would, such is the value of understanding, as opposed to parroting information.

Mar-28-14  Petrosianic: <Indeed he would, such is the value of understanding, as opposed to parroting information.>

I'm oddly ambivalent about the computer. Playing chess online on a computer is one of the best things that's ever happened to the game, while the computer chess <engine> is one of the worst. But you can't really have the one without the other.

Mar-30-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  thegoodanarchist: <Petrosianic: It doesn't matter. >

And the other posts on this website do? Get real. If we want to debate the hypothetical, you aren't going to stop us with your pointless pronouncements.

Apr-08-14  Zugzwangovich: In "The Life and Games of Mikhail Tal", Mischa claimed he lost this game after declining a draw offered by Fischer. Seems quite hard to believe considering the course of the game and the circumstances under which it was played.
Apr-08-14  Riverbeast: Just an incredible game by Fischer
Apr-08-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  Marmot PFL: <The USCF provided Fischer with a computer and a second for his planned match with Anand in 1990. There's no reason to think he wouldn't have used them.>

Never heard anything about such a match. 1990 computers still weren't anywhere near good enough to be of much use to top GMs. In any case if Fischer declined to play Anand I'm sure he made the wise decision.

Apr-08-14  Petrosianic: <thegoodanarchist> <Get real. If we want to debate the hypothetical, you aren't going to stop us with your pointless pronouncements.>

If you didn't understand the point, I'll be glad to try to put it another way. I don't object to debating hypothetical questions, it just seems pointless to compare real players to hypothetical ones. You can say "My hypothetical player beats your real one", but so what? I can invent a hypothetical player that beats your hypothetical player. And you can return the favor.

I don't mind speculating on what Morphy or Fischer might have done, but my appreciation of them doesn't depend on hypotheticals. I don't appreciate Morphy because he woulda coulda shoulda beat Steinitz, but because of what he actually did do. Same with Fischer. Some people seem unable to appreciate Fischer without convincing padding his resume with fictional successes (beating Karpov in 1975, beating Nakamura now, defending his title against Kasparov in 1993, winning at Curacao, and scores of other things he never actually did).

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