< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|Jul-06-08|| ||triangulation: ok let me try insane properly for onece.
The first thing i notice about the position is that the black bishop is guarding the d8 square otherwise rd8+ would be brilliant.
of course, more pressing, it would seem is the immediate loss of material,with the light squared bishop unprotected and the rook being attacked by the black dark squared bishop.
Saving the material isn't an option(through moves like Ra4 or Rc4 as you're pawns down anyway) as it loses all attack.
Candidate moves :
1. Rad1 giving up the exchange anyway
followed possibly by Bxa8 15.Bxc5,Bd7 16.Ne5,Bc4 17. Qd2 Bf6 ....
and black seems safe relatively
2.14 ne5 is possible but dosen't make sense
3. 14 ng5 too seems a dud
I give up let's see.
|Jul-06-08|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: While looking at the engine analysis of this puzzle, I spotted a derivative puzzle. Suppose that the game went into this variant:|
14. Rd8+ Bxd8 15. Bxc5 Be7 16. Qd3 f5 17. Bxf5! Qf6 18. Ne5!
click for larger view
White has 3 pieces en prise, but is winning easily.
Tuesday-level question: why is the white knight untouchable?
Wednesday-level question: why is the white LSB on f5 untouchable?
|Jul-06-08|| ||Giearth: <MAJ> 18... ♕f6x♗f5 19.♕d3-b5+ ♗c8-d7 20.♕b5x♗d7+ ♔e8-f8 21.♕b5-d8+ ♖a8x♕d8 22.♖d1x♖d8#|
18... ♕f6x♘e5 19.♗f5-g6+ ♙h7x♗g6 20.♕d3x♙g6+ ♔e8-f8 21.♖d1-d8#
18... ♙e6x♗f5 19.♕d3-b5+
If I were black, I would probably choose 18... ♙g6 as my defense.
|Jul-06-08|| ||belgradegambit: This weeks Sunday puzzle not insane at all. The position shouts for Rd8+ and then putting the queen on the d file.|
|Jul-06-08|| ||ounos: <dzechiel>, sometimes you try to infer the last move and "use" that information to find the puzzle solution. (Here "Black is greedy" because he moved Bf6 instead of castling, thus must be panished by Rd8+ - what if Black was not greedy but played something like Bh4-f6?)|
The only cases the last move really matters per se are en passant instances... Past moves can also matter where the right to castle is ambiguous. Apart from these, the position is what it is, whatever the moves which lead to it.
|Jul-06-08|| ||stukkenjager: <whiteshark> 14.Ng5! looks ok to me|
14.Ng5 Bxg5 (14...Bd7 15.Nxf7 Kxf7 16.Qh5+ Kg8 17.Qxc5 Be8 18.Rd6) (14...Nd7 15.Qh5 g6 16.Qh3) 15.Bxg5 Bd7 16.Qf3 Rc8 17.Be3 (17.Rxd7 O-O 18.R7d2 Qe5 19.Bxb7 Nxb7 20.Be7 Nc5 21.Bxf8 Kxf8) 17...Nxe4 18.Rxd7 O-O 19.Qxe4 Qxa2
a clear win in all lines, so it seems.
|Jul-06-08|| ||goodevans: <Jole: I got it and got it quickly woo! I thought that yesterday's puzzle was harder.> I got the first couple of moves pretty quickly, too, but the plethora of possibilities for black’s next move stopped me getting beyond that. Seems most folk have done likewise so I guess that’s why it’s rated as “insane”. ... Or is it because <whiteshark>’s 14.Ng5! is actually the better “solution”?|
|Jul-06-08|| ||234: Saturday puzzle Jul-05-08 <21. ...?> Ribli vs E Lobron, 1992|
|Jul-06-08|| ||skotlander: al wazir, after18.Qd8 Qb5 it looks like 19.Qxe8 Qxe8 20. Rd8 Qxd8 21. Bxd8 leaves white with three well-placed minor pieces against rook. bishop and extra pawn and what looks like an easy win due to the awkward position of the black rook.|
|Jul-06-08|| ||Bobsterman3000: Well, once again I knew the initial move 14. Rd8 but after that I could not find any of the follow-up moves...|
|Jul-06-08|| ||patzer2: For today's insanely difficult Sunday puzzle solution, Anand plays the decoy, exchange (sham) sacrifice 14. Rd8+!! for a decisive attack against the resulting helpless Black King position. See <MostlyAverageJoe>'s post above for the deep winning follow-up after 15...Be7 (IMO Black's strongest practical defense).|
P.S.: I saw the possibility 14. Rd8+!! Bxd8 15. Bxc5, but could not figure out a win for White after 15...Be7.
|Jul-06-08|| ||thegoldenband: Like others, I saw 14. Rd8+ Bxd8 15. Bxc5 but didn't get much further.|
What happens after 17...Qa4?
|Jul-06-08|| ||whiteshark: Thanks <stukkenjager> for the <14.Ng5> lines! I think they are great. So just some small addendums:|
after <14...Nd7>: <15.Nxh7> looks strong, too, e.g. <15...Rxh7 16.Bxh7 g6 Ra4>
and after <14...Bd7>: <15.Qh5> is worth a consideration, e.g. <15...Bxg5 16.Bxg5 Nxe4 17.Rxe4 Qb5 18.Qg4>
and after <14.Ng5 Bxg5 15.Bxg5 Bd7 16.Qf3 Rc8 17.Rxd7 O-O>: <18.R7d4> could be a good alternative to prevent ...Qe5, e.g. <18...Nxe4 19.Qxe4>
|Jul-06-08|| ||al wazir: <skotlander>: White certainly has the advantage, but I'm not sure the win is easy. My only claim is that this line is an improvenment for black. At least after 21 moves he isn't two pieces down.|
|Jul-06-08|| ||chopbox: Thank you, <MostlyAverageJoe>, for the analysis after 15...Be7. I'll take a swing at your two side puzzles:|
A. Why can't Black take the Knight?
if 18...Qxe5, then follows
19.Bg6 hxg6 (19...Kf8 20.Qd8#) 20.Qxg6+ Kf8 21.Rd8#
B. Why can't Black take the LSB?
(take with the queen) if 18...Qxf5, then follows 19. Qb5+ Bd7 (19... Kf8 20. Rd8#) 20. Qxd7+ Kf8 21. Qd8+ Rxd8 22. Rxd8#)
(take with the pawn) and if 18...exf5 19.Qb5+ and Black's only reasonable response is 19...Qc6, which drops the queen and more.
(19... Bd7 (19... Kf8 20. Rd8#) 20. Qxd7+ Kf8 21.Qd8+ Rxd8 22.Rxd8#)
19...Qc6 20.Nxc6 bxc6 (20... Bxc5 21. Nd8+ Ke7 22. Qxc5+ ) 21. Qe2 O-O 22. Qxe7
|Jul-06-08|| ||Udit Narayan: wah wah vishy|
|Jul-06-08|| ||patzer2: Here's my computer checked move-by-move analysis of a winning continuation in the 15...Be7 16. Qa3! line given by <MAJ>:|
14. Rd8+!! Bxd8 15. Bxc5 Be7 16. Qd3! f5 (16... h6 17. Bxe7 Kxe7 18. Qd6+ Kf6 19. Qf4+ Ke7 20. Ne5! f5 21. Ng6+ Kf7 22. Nxh8+ Kg8 23. Rd8+ Kh7 24. Bd3 ) 17. Bxf5 Qf6 (17... exf5 18. Bxe7 Kxe7 19. Qd6+ Kf7 20. Ng5+ Kg8 21. Qd8#) 18. Ne5! a6 (18... g6 19. Qb5+ Kf8 20. Rd7 Bxc5 21. Qxc5+ Ke8 22. Rc7 exf5 23. Rxc8+ Rxc8 24. Qxc8+ Qd8 25. Qxd8+ Kxd8 26. Nf7+ Ke7 27. Nxh8 Kf6 28. Nxg6 Kxg6 29. f3 with a won endgame) 19. Bxe7 Qxe5 20. Qd8+ Kf7 21. Qxh8 Qxf5 22. Ba3 Qb5 (22...
Qxc2 23. Qf8+ Kg6 24. Qe8+ ) 23. Qf8+ Kg6 24. h4 h5 25. Qh8 Qe5 26. Rd3 b5 27. Rg3+ Kf5 28. Qxh5+ Ke4 29. Qf3+ Kd4 30. Qd3#.
|Jul-06-08|| ||Artar1: 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Be7 5.Nf3 Nf6 6.Bd3 Nxe4 7.Bxe4 c5 8.0–0 Nd7 9.Qe2 cxd4 10.Rd1 Nc5 11.Rxd4 Qb6 12.Be3 Qxb2 13.Rad1 Bf6 |
<[13...Nxe4 14.Rxe4 0–0 ]>
click for larger view
<14.Rd8+ Bxd8 15.Bxc5 Bd7 16.Qd3 Qb5 17.c4 Qxc5 18.Qxd7+ Kf8>
I got this far and petered out; I was expecting more, perhaps a checkmate?
<[19...Rc8 (This is an alternative for Black.) 20.Bc6 Qxc6 21.Qxc6 Rxc6 22.Rxd8+ Ke7 23.Rxh8 Rxc4 24.h4 ]>
20.Qxa8 Kg7 1–0
|Jul-06-08|| ||SufferingBruin: White to play. "Insane."
So I guess this position rules out pawn moves?
The home team is down a pawn but has doubled rooks on an open d-file that leads to the black king. One of our rooks is on the a1-h8 diagonal, which is flat-out owned by black. My first inclination is to make use of the d-file; perhaps a rush to the d8 square, sacrificing both rooks for a mating attack. Hey, this is Vishwanathan Anand, my sonï¿½s name is Anand but I digress.
I think we have to act fast to keep black from castling.
14. Rd8+ Bxd8
The Bishop keeps the king from castling. I've still got the rook on the d-file. I'm down the exchange but I appear to have a mother of an attack. In fact, I think this wins. I don't see a black response that stops white from winning (I'd type the lines but the boy and I are headed to the beach). Let's check.
|Jul-06-08|| ||Marmot PFL: Rd8+ Bxd8 Bxc5 is the first idea that came to mind, a strong attack against the uncastled king which appears to win (of course white was the stronger player). Another interesting line is to try to actually force castling and then breakthrough- 14.Ng5 h6 15.Qh5 0-0 16.Qxf7+ Rxf7 17.Rd8+ Rf8 18.Bh7+ Kh8 19.Rxf8#, but this requires more help from black.|
|Jul-06-08|| ||ToTheDeath: I don't think this was particularly insane. The sacrifice of an exchange to keep the king in the center is a common idea- it was my first choice. |
Instead of 13...Bf6, Black should try 13...O-O 14.Bxh7+!? Kxh7 15.Ng5+ Bxg5 16.Bxg5 with a strong attack for White though he might be able to force a draw with careful defense.
|Jul-06-08|| ||dzechiel: <ounos: <dzechiel>, sometimes you try to infer the last move and "use" that information to find the puzzle solution.>|
You are quite right that I often try to determine the last move made, but in this case I only commented on it because it APPEARED to me that black had gotten greedy, and went for material when he should have castled.
This was meant to be an observation and admonition to newer players that they should complete their development (including castling) before overextending themselves by trying to win quick material.
This observation was not used by me in choosing 14...Rd8+, in fact I had "found" that move long before I started making my notes.
|Jul-06-08|| ||whiteshark: <Marmot PFL <14.Ng5 h6 15.Qh5 0-0 16.Qxf7+ Rxf7 17.Rd8+ Rf8 18.Bh7+ Kh8 19.Rxf8#, <but this requires more help from black.>>> |
After <14.Ng5 h6> there is already <15.Nxf7!> possible, with <15...0-0 16.Nxh6+!! gxh6 17.Qg4+ Kh8 18.Qg6!! >
click for larger view
In your line black may have tried <15...Bxg5 16.Bxg5 Bd7 17.Bc1 Qc3 18.Bxb7 Rb8 19.Qg4 g5 20.Rc4!! > which is hopeless, too.
|Jul-06-08|| ||johnlspouge: Sunday (Insane): White to play and win.
Material: Down a P. White has a battery Rd1 and Rd4 on the d-file. The Be3 and Be4 control adjacent long diagonals, and Be3 has a discovered attack on the loose Nc5. The Black Qb7 has some potential for back-rank mate threats against the White Kg8. The Black Ke8 is in the center, however, and White has a sacrificial candidate to keep him there.
Candidates (14.): Rd8+
Candidates (15.): Bxc5, Rxd8+
(1) 15.Bxc5 (threatening 16.Qd3 Bf6 17.Ne5)
The exchange plus a P is a fair price to pay for keeping Ke8 in the center, hampering the development of the Black Q-side, and keeping the Black Ra8 and Rh8 out of the game. I see no sufficiently forceful continuation after
(2) 15.Rxd8+ Kxd8 16.Qd1+ Ke8
and Rd1 is too strong a defensive piece to sacrifice without a substantial advantage over other alternatives.
In the threat, Ne5 is immune because of 17…Bxe5 18.Qd8# and 17…Qxe5 18.Qb5+ Bd7 19.Qxd7#. The maneuver Nc4-Nd6+ seems lethal to the Black Ke8. After 16.Qd3, the Black Bd8 is burdened with preventing Qd8#, so 16…Bf6 is as effective as any other move in halting the threats (i.e., not at all).
Black can try to expel Bc5:
(1.1) 15…Be7 16.Bxe7 Kxe7 17.Qd3
Black is almost unable to develop and has an exposed Kf6. After blocking the a1-h8 diagonal for Qb7, White can activate Nf3 for the K-hunt and expand on the K-side by moving his Pg2 and Ph2 if necessary. It seems impossible to enumerate the possible variations.
To prepare to castle Q-side to escape the crossfire, or at least to activate Ra8 for defense, the best try I can see for Black is
Candidates (16.): Rxd7, Qd3, Qd2, Ne5
[else, the Black Ke8 remains in the center without compensation]
The Ne5 is again immune, because of 18.Qb5+ then 19.Qxb7+ 20.Qd7# or 19.B moves winning Qe5. Black has 4 flight squares.
(1) 17…Ke8 [or Kc8 or Kc7] 18.Qd1 Qb5 [else, mate soon] 19.Bc6+
and Black loses his Q or is mated.
(2) 17…Kd8 18.Qd1+ and mate soon
I have been traveling and I have to stop now without checking the variations.
It is definitely an interesting puzzle.
|Jul-07-08|| ||johnlspouge: My last line does not hold up. Toga II 1.3.1 gives
(1) 17…Ke8 18.Qxe5
and White has nothing.
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