chessgames.com
Members · Prefs · Laboratory · Collections · Openings · Endgames · Sacrifices · History · Search Kibitzing · Kibitzer's Café · Chessforums · Tournament Index · Players · Kibitzing

Alexander Yevgenyevich Baburin vs Sergey Nikolayevich Fokin
URS-sf RUS-ch (1989), Gorky URS, Nov-??
Queen's Gambit Declined: Semi-Tarrasch Defense. Main Line (D42)  ·  1-0
ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

explore this opening
find similar games 693 more games of Baburin
sac: 31.Rxg6+ PGN: download | view | print Help: general | java-troubleshooting

TIP: At the top of the page we display the common English name for the opening, followed by the ECO code (e.g. "D42"). The ECO codes are links that take you to opening pages.

PGN Viewer:  What is this?
For help with this chess viewer, please see the Olga Chess Viewer Quickstart Guide.
PREMIUM MEMBERS CAN REQUEST COMPUTER ANALYSIS [more info]

Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 4 OF 4 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Jan-04-08  A.G. Argent: <UdayanOwen; Have to go into early retirement>; While you may need to step away from this site and distance yourself from the analysis jones and deal with such a minor element in your life like a new baby, I heartily doubt you ain't comin' back at all, judging from some previous posts. You're the one who used the word addiction. Use the word hiatus instead of retirement. Besides, if you're reading this, you ARE back. And since you are back, who was it you quoted ?: "Chess is not a game. It is a profound and beautiful universe....." Anybody else know who said it?
Jan-04-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  Jimfromprovidence: 29 Rc3! is the best move nobody has ever played. Ain’t it a shame that a computer figured it out?

<Maj> <After 11 CPU hours, Hiarcs insists that 1. (+5.10) 29. Rc3 Rc8 30. Rxg6 ...
is the best continuation,>

I’m having difficulty finding the way to a rook’s worth gain of material in this line.

What’s the continuation after 30… hxg6 31 Qxg6+ Kf8 32 Rg3 Bxg2?

Thanks

Jan-04-08  znprdx: <parmetd: wow I got this so wrong...> not at all in fact you got it so right <None of the moves played seemed like a forced variation.>

d5 was an obvious ploy to get the rook to c7. The basic (yawn) Rc3 rook lift equally straight -forward - which I'd play in tournament..but end up struggling because of complications. >The only real finesse here would be 29.Bd6<which I'd play in Rapids to keep the King off f8, then after the forced win combo of Rxg6 almost anything wins.

Also what was to stop Black from trying a desperation strategy after the dubious 30.Bb2? with ...Qxg2+ ...I think this at least draws...In Blitz I'd have probably played 29.Rxg6 immediately

Happy New Year <MAJ> - if there is a limit to the usefulness of computer analysis - we can see its shortcomings here - sometimes there are just too many possible reasonable continuations to insist on any absolute verdict, which in this case is that position was pretty one-sided - and <CG>'s choice does NOT really meet a nominal criteria of being a puzzle -

Jan-04-08  futonchild: Shouldn't that read "36. Qe7#"?
Jan-04-08  alphee: Very nice puzzle. It made me search for a while and I missed d5. I should have seen it as I was looking for a way to deviate the Queen to give to the suite ♖xg6+, hxg6, ♕xg6+, ♔f8 a chance to work.
Jan-04-08  UdayanOwen: <A.G. Argent: <UdayanOwen; Have to go into early retirement>; While you may need to step away from this site and distance yourself from the analysis jones and deal with such a minor element in your life like a new baby, I heartily doubt you ain't comin' back at all, judging from some previous posts. You're the one who used the word addiction. Use the word hiatus instead of retirement. Besides, if you're reading this, you ARE back. And since you are back, who was it you quoted ?: "Chess is not a game. It is a profound and beautiful universe....." Anybody else know who said it?>

I will pop in having a look at puzzles and saying hi, but if I start kibitzing the taste will bite me and I'll get drawn helplessly into hours of analytical work, sacrificing sleep, neglecting my wife, children, chores and university studies.

I'm not giving up chess, I'll just do studies that I can put down when I need to.... chessgames kibitzing doesn't fit into that category for me.

That phrase you alluded to came from my head... if someone else said it, that is probably a coincidence (alternatively, I may have read it without remembering it, and it came through subconsciously.... I'd probably remember it though, so I doubt this explanation).

I prepared several other, even more over the top 'poetic' odes to the beauty of chess.... but held back on the posting when I concluded they were totally corny and lame....

P.S. Chess STILL @#$%ing rocks!!!!

Jan-04-08  wals: Alexander Baburin - Sergey Fokin, URS-sf RUS-ch Gorky 16 1989


click for larger view

Analysis by Fritz 11:

1. (2.24): 29.Rc1-c3 Ra8-c8 30.Rg4xg6+ h7xg6 31.Qg3xg6+ Kg8-f8 32.Rc3-g3 Bc6xg2 33.Rg3xg2 Qd7-d8 34.Qg6-h5 Qd8-d7 35.Be5-g7+ Kf8-e7 36.h6-h7 Ke7-d6 37.h7-h8Q Rc8xh8 38.Bg7xh8 a7-a5 39.Bh8-e5+ Kd6-c6 40.Rg2-g3 2. (1.92): 29.Be5-d6 Ra8-c8 30.Rg4xg6+ h7xg6 31.Qg3xg6+ Rf7-g7 32.h6xg7 Qd7xd6 33.Rc1-c3 Qd6-d5 34.Rc3-f3 Qd5xf3 35.g2xf3 Bc6-d5 36.Qg6-f6 a7-a5 37.Kg1-g2 a5-a4 38.Qf6-e7 b6-b5 39.Kg2-g3

(, 05.01.2008)

Jan-04-08  MostlyAverageJoe: <Jimfromprovidence:

<Maj> <After 11 CPU hours, Hiarcs insists that 1. (+5.10) 29. Rc3 Rc8 30. Rxg6 ... is the best continuation>

What’s the continuation after 30… hxg6 31 Qxg6+ Kf8 32 Rg3 Bxg2>

Here's a quick forward scan:

<29. Rc3 Rc8 30. Rxg6+ hxg6 31. Qxg6+ Kf8 32. Rg3 Bxg2> 33. Rxg2 Qd8 34. Rg4 Rc1+ 35. Kh2 Rxf2+ 36. Kg3 Rcf1 37. Qg8+ Ke7 38. Rg7+ Rf7 39. h7 Rf3+ 40. Kh4 Qd5 41. h8=Q


click for larger view

This was done very quickly, so improvements are possible. The line shows white's primary threats of Qg8 and h7-h8=Q. If you play through it, it is quite amazing how a naked white K escapes unscathed. This line is really for computers only :-)

Continuation:

41. ... Qe4+ 42. Rg4 Qe1+ 43. Kg5 Qd2+ 44. Bf4 Qa5+ 45. Qe5

and black is out of useful checks. Hiarcs declares mate in 14 from here.

White has a bit more trouble after B sac in move 32:

32. ... Be4 33. Qxe4 Qc6 34. h7 Qxe4 35. h8=Q+ Ke7 36. Qxc8 Qb1+ 37. Kh2 Rh7+ 38. Rh3 Rxh3+ 39. Kxh3 Qh7+ 40. Kg3 Qg6+

but the material gain is clear here:


click for larger view

Jan-04-08  MostlyAverageJoe: <znprdx: Happy New Year <MAJ>>

And Happy New Year to you too!

Too bad I have to disagree right away with <if there is a limit to the usefulness of computer analysis - we can see its shortcomings here> -- IMHO, this puzzle shows exactly how computers can outmaneuver (most) humans in tactical positions.

MAJ, thinking about partial retirement from CG for similar reasons to <UdayanOwen>'s -- this site is too @#$%ing addictive.

Jan-04-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  Jimfromprovidence: Thanks to <wals> and <maj> for their positional analysis of the line I put forward. <<What’s the continuation after 30… hxg6 31 Qxg6+Kf8 32 Rg3 Bxg2?>>

They do digress on move 34 for white, though. Don't know what that means, however).

I love the rook lift but who has the guts and knowledge to play it correctly?

Your opponent knows exactly what you’re doing so you have to be pretty certain that it's going to work before you try to pull it off.

Jan-04-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  dzechiel: <parmetd: dzechiel post indicates the draw is guaranteed simply cause of the opposite colored bishops.>

What I was trying to convey (obviously not very successfully) is that we white shouldn't go down a line that trades the major pieces off the board, as a bishop and pawn endgame would be difficult to win.

All of this was meant to imply that white should be looking for moves that either win an exchange (no more opposite colored bishops) or go right for the jugular with a mating attack.

Jan-04-08  Gouki: <Shouldn't that read "36. Qe7#"?>

Yes it should. The position at the end is mate.

Jan-04-08  MostlyAverageJoe: ,Jimfromprovidence: Thanks to <wals> and <maj> for their positional analysis of the line I put forward. <<What’s the continuation after 30… hxg6 31 Qxg6+Kf8 32 Rg3 Bxg2?>> They do digress on move 34 for white, though. Don't know what that means, however).>

The Fritz analysis from <wals> is an infinity analysis starting at move 29 -- and I am pretty sure that it is less than 30 plies deep. Therefore, move 34 is definitely not to be trusted there.

My line is done in forward scan mode, where I run in mullti-PV for a while and follow the best choice. This is equivalent to putting the engine on auto-play with fixed search depth per move.

Forward scan accelerates the analysis at least an order of magnitude, but possibly misses some better choices due to the shallower analysis (e.g., 16 plies) in each move. Sometimes the moves are forced, though, and this is where such scan can be faster than auto-play. Lines obtained this way are good candidates for backsliding (to identify missed opportunities).

Some backsliding on my initial line is what indicated that 32...Bg2 is sub-optimal, too, and 32...Be4 sac appeared to be better.

Jan-04-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  DarthStapler: I kept looking at Rxc6 to deflect the queen from the 7th rank
Jan-04-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  johnlspouge: Just to add more computer confusion into the mix, I left Toga II 1.3.1 running during the day.

18 ply 0:54:21 time +4.38 value

29.Rc3 Rc8 30.Rxg6+ hxg6 31.Qxg6+ Kf8 32.Rg3 Bxg2 33.Rxg2 Qd8 34.Rg4 Rc1+ 35.Kh2 Rxf2+ 36.Kg3 <Rg2+> 37.Kxg2 Qd5+ 38.Kg3 Rg1+ 39.Kf2 Rxg4 40.Qxg4 Qa2+ 41.Kf3 Qa3+ 42.Ke4 Qa2 43.Bd6+ Ke8 44.Qg8+ Kd7 45.h7 Qe2+ 46.Kf4 Qf2+ 47.Kg5 Qf5+ 48.Kh4 Qf2+ 49.Kh3

The Black move 36...<Rg2+> diverges from <MAJ>'s Hiarcs analysis.

Interestingly, later Toga changes its mind on White move 30.

21 ply 3:39:46 time +4.23 value

29.Rc3 Kf8 30.<Rf4> Rxf4 31.Qxf4+ Ke8 32.Bd6 Qf7 33.Qc1 Rc8 34.d5 exd5 35.Rxc6 Rxc6 36.Qxc6+ Qd7 37.Qxd5 Qf5 38.Qa8+ Kd7 39.Bb8 g5 40.Qb7+ Ke8 41.Bxa7 Qb1+ 42.Kh2 Qg6 43.Bxb6 Qd6+ 44.g3 Qxh6+ 45.Kg2

Just in case anyone wants to question the competitiveness of freeware, Toga II 1.3.1 ($0, free) took the toughest of puzzle I have seen

G M Todorovic vs Z Kozul, 1988

and came up with the correct Rh5 Rxd5 maneuver at 17 ply, 1:25:32 time, +6.02 value. Rybka 2.3.2 ($40) still had not got the maneuver after 25 ply 9:46:55 time +3.49 value.

Jan-04-08  DevastatioN: <Chessgames.com> It should be Qe7# not Qe7+ :)
Jan-04-08  A.G. Argent: <UdayO> Now obviously I liked your adage/observation/epigram whatever. So as not to belabor the matter further in this forum, could you maybe drop a few of your others in my forum. Doubt I'd find 'em corny or over the top. I love that stuff. Thanks pal.
Jan-04-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  johnlspouge: <patzer2: an even stronger and more human-like solution is 29. Rc3!!>

I suspect more of us would have looked at 29.Rc3 if it had been Sunday ;O}

Jan-04-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  whiteshark: <29.Rc3> is rather impressive. It's a good example for attacking when you have opposite coloured bishops aside heavy pieces. Here you have the additional power of a ♙h6.

After <29.Rc3 Rc8 30.Rxg6+ hxg6 31.Qxg6+ Kf8 32.Rg3> <32...Be4> looks only like the lesser evil in a hopeless position.

Jan-04-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  johnlspouge: Interesting. The computer rates B vs Ps inferior, but Q+B vs Q+Ps superior. There is something (obvious, in retrospect) to be learned. A piece vs. pawns might generally be better in the middle game than in the endgame, because of mate threats.
Jan-04-08  zooter: Spike 1.1 has the following analysis in favor of 29.Rc3

+4.24 29.Rc3 Kf8 30.Rf4 Rd8 31.d5 Qxd5 32.Rd4 Qxd4 33.Bxd4 Rxd4 34.Rxc6 Rd1+ 35.Kh2 Rdd7 36.Rxe6 Rfe7 37.Rf6+ Rf7 38.Qb8+ Ke7 39.Qe5+ Kf8 40.Rc6 Rd8

What was interesting is that after about 9 hours of analysis, the ply is only at depth 21 with about 28 Billion moves analysed! This I feel shows the sheer complexity of the position as somebody else pointed out

Jan-04-08  znprdx: <MAJ> I'm kind of dismayed you still don't get it <11 CPU hours> - how many days - months - or years is that in human time?

It is increasingly pathetic to watch people posting computer analysis while watching the world's top players in a tournament or match. As I've posted more than once, save it for the final draw positions - and/or maybe even incorporate it - into deciding their outcomes.

Other than that there is relatively little value - particularly in going anywhere beyond 12 ply in maybe 6 variations ...because humans just don't do that: they intuit the implicit synergy. They move and in a finite period of time the opponent must move - and that's all folks. Either we incorporate tracking all the analysis a player evaluated - or we leave our beautiful game uncontaminated....

Jan-04-08  GannonKnight: I was also zeroed in on Rxc6 as a deflection. But there are better ways to get the Black queen out of the way and then to set up Ba3+. Nice, but terribly difficult puzzle.
Jan-04-08  RandomVisitor: Black's last chance to equalize was apparently 27...Rc8, which stops 28.Rc1.
Jan-05-08  MostlyAverageJoe: <znprdx: <MAJ> I'm kind of dismayed you still don't get it <11 CPU hours> - how many days - months - or years is that in human time?>

Hmm, I guess you did not look at my first post, which reported 29.Rc3 as the best move after 16 plies. Actually, it got ahead of the alternate moves after 15 plies, or about 90 seconds of analysis; at 16 plies, after 3 minutes of running, the move appeared to be a clear winner.

The 11 CPU hours was just because I had to sleep instead of driving the engine. With some manual nudging, I'd get to the same conclusion much faster, but I did not feel like spending time on that, while wanting to see the results of deep analysis, especially after noticing a rather slow start (only 15 plies in 90 seconds is unusual in positions with forcing tactics).

It is noteworthy that the results did NOT change - the same move picked after 90 seconds stayed on top; it was only the subsequent line and the final valuation that got improved.

The remaining analysis I posted took me maybe 15 minutes to do, and even if it contained some inaccuracies, I bet they were quite small.

Thus, your dismay over 11 hours is not justified. I'd venture a guess that at human time controls, the engine would easily have found the best move, particularly since it would not have to start from scratch, but would have the benefit of knowing the previous moves and analysis of the possible continuations.

As a matter of fact, I just run a quick experiment, starting two moves earlier, and following the game at 30 seconds per move. Once it came to move 29, the 29.Rc3 was picked just about instantaneously.

<It is increasingly pathetic to watch people posting computer analysis while watching the world's top players in a tournament or match>

This is a completely different topic. By the way, it is probably easier to find a chess player whose intuition will result in picking the winning lines, than to find a human capable of writing software that will find the same lines. But then again, as a software wrangler myself, I have a different appreciation of that domain than many others.

Jump to page #    (enter # from 1 to 4)
search thread:   
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 4 OF 4 ·  Later Kibitzing>
NOTE: You need to pick a username and password to post a reply. Getting your account takes less than a minute, is totally anonymous, and 100% free—plus, it entitles you to features otherwise unavailable. Pick your username now and join the chessgames community!
If you already have an account, you should login now.
Please observe our posting guidelines:
  1. No obscene, racist, sexist, profane, raunchy, or disgusting language.
  2. No spamming, advertising, duplicate or nonsense posts.
  3. No malicious personal attacks, including cyber stalking, systematic antagonism, or gratuitous name-calling of any member Iincludinfgall Admin and Owners or any of their family, friends, associates, or business interests. If you think someone is an idiot, then provide evidence that their reasoning is invalid and/or idiotic, instead of just calling them an idiot. It's a subtle but important distinction, even in political discussions.
  4. Nothing in violation of United States law.
  5. No malicious posting of or linking to personal, private, and/or negative information (aka "doxing" or "doxxing") about any member, (including all Admin and Owners) or any of their family, friends, associates, or business interests. This includes all media: text, images, video, audio, or otherwise. Such actions will result in severe sanctions for any violators.
  6. NO TROLLING. Admin and Owners know it when they see it, and sanctions for any trolls will be significant.
  7. Any off-topic posts which distract from the primary topic of discussion are subject to removal.
  8. The use of "sock puppet" accounts to circumvent disciplinary action taken by Moderators is expressly prohibited.
  9. The use of "sock puppet" accounts in an attempt to undermine any side of a debate—or to create a false impression of consensus or support—is prohibited.
  10. All decisions with respect to deleting posts, and any subsequent discipline, are final, and occur at the sole discretion of the Moderators, Admin, and Owners.
  11. Please try to maintain a semblance of civility at all times.
Blow the Whistle See something that violates our rules? Blow the whistle and inform a Moderator.

NOTE: Keep all discussion on the topic of this page. This forum is for this specific game and nothing else. If you want to discuss chess in general, or this site, visit the Kibitzer's Café.

Messages posted by Chessgames members do not necessarily represent the views of Chessgames.com, its employees, or sponsors. All Moderator actions taken are at the sole discretion of the Admin and Owners—who will strive to act fairly and consistently at all times.

This game is type: CLASSICAL. Please report incorrect or missing information by submitting a correction slip to help us improve the quality of our content.

<This page contains Editor Notes. Click here to read them.>

Featured in the Following Game Collections[what is this?]
29. d5!? not best but is an instructive positional sacrifice
from Clearance by patzer2
29. Rc3!! or 29. Bd6!! or 29. Rxg6+! are winning options
from Helpless King by patzer2
29.? (Friday, January 4)
from Puzzle of the Day 2008 by Phony Benoni
Hard Daily Puzzles
by Jaredfchess
Game collection: IQP
by KingG
29 blancas
from Puzzle 4 by ALEXIN
Fri: A Positional Rc3 Trumps Rxg6 Sacrifice
from Interesting Daily Puzzles by johnlspouge
29 change diagonal
from TacticalArchives by villasinian
Hard Daily Puzzles
by PositionalTactician
Antiochus' favorite games
by Antiochus
29.? (January 4, 2008)
from Friday Puzzles, 2004-2010 by Phony Benoni
29.? (Friday, January 4)
from POTD Queen Gambit Declined + Accepted by takchess


home | about | login | logout | F.A.Q. | your profile | preferences | Premium Membership | Kibitzer's Café | Biographer's Bistro | new kibitzing | chessforums | Tournament Index | Player Directory | Notable Games | World Chess Championships | Opening Explorer | Guess the Move | Game Collections | ChessBookie Game | Chessgames Challenge | Store | privacy notice | contact us
Copyright 2001-2019, Chessgames Services LLC