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Vladimir Bagirov vs Mark Taimanov
URS 1977  ·  Queen's Gambit Declined: Barmen Variation (D37)  ·  1-0
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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Feb-10-03  pawntificator: That is a bad rule. Damn the beaurocrats! Stifling chess with their pompous red tape!
Feb-10-03
Premium Chessgames Member
  Sneaky: What do you do if the shirt sleeve of your opponent brushes a piece while he's reaching for another? This has happened to me, and I decided that only a low-down disgraceful cur would try to hold him to the letter of the law under such circumstances. The touch-rule has a purpose: to prevent people from manipulating pieces, taking back moves, distracting their opponent, and so forth. It was never intended to turn chess into a dexterity contest.
Feb-10-03  Spitecheck: Yes my friend made a similar mistake, however, if you read the FIDE rules carefully. Or as atleast as they were then, you are only required to move a piece if it was your intention to move that piece. Taimanov may have picked up his King but it was not his intention to move that piece. His problem was that the King move was perfectly legal so it's hard to argue with the arbiter or his opponent should he speak up about his error (except on the grounds he's a grand master and not an idiot).....my friend played Ke1 to Qh5+ (announcing check as he did this), LOL, he had written on his scoresheet Qh5+ but he picked up his King by mistake. His opponent didn't have a problem with that but the arbiter did......???!! It cost him the game and prize money for that matter, after extensive attempts at an answer that went as far as FIDE itself, it was never resolved, and we are left with the other rule in the book......the arbiter's decision is final. LOL. If it was me I would allow him to take the move back. I have allowed players to take back moves in tournament games where I felt they were truthful in there endeavours and they were immediate in there request (before I had begun analysing, in other words).
Feb-10-03  aulero: Fischer suggested a new rule: the possibility to retract the last move! I don't know the details but only the purpose.

Fischer was obviously thinking to blunders, but obviously it can be applied in more than one situation.

Personally I think this new rule difficult to manage but very well thought.

Feb-10-03  ughaibu: In amateur shogi tournaments we use the rule that the move is made when we press the clock, before that there's none of this touch move nonsense, we bang pieces on the table to build up fighting spirit, stuff like that. Chess like most of the western world is impoverished by over-regulation.
Feb-10-03  aulero: When I played competitive chess, if I remember correctly, there was a similar rule for blitz games. Thank you for reminding me what I have forgotten!
Feb-11-03  judokausa1: This is a prime example of my pet peevs when it comes to playing online. I detest people that take mouse slips as serious moves. They are only interested in the "win" and not the game as an art. I totally agree with Sneaky on this one. I would only hold a person to it if it was obvious they were making the move.
Feb-14-03  pawntificator: I just made a mouse slip the other day on gameknot.com. It was a critical error, because I probably had a lost position anyway, but it was a pawn move and there are no takebacks, I don't think. I was @#$%*. But did I get any sympathy from my opponent? No. That dirty rat. heh heh I am adding this after seeing the preview of my message. I didn't know that you couldn't say @#$%*.
Feb-14-03  drukenknight: The rule for FIDE is "intent" Its only if you actually intended to move the piece.

The shirt sleeve problem should clearly not be penalized under FIDE. The guy did not mean to touch it.

Heres a better example. A guy always moves pieces by grabbing with the thumb/forefinger; and he bends his pinky outward, like he's drinking tea.

It is a known behavior, people who've seen him at club, know he always moves it like this. Okay, so he grabs for a piece, but his pinky accidentally touches another piece.

What's the call? It should be a non penalty. He did not intend to touch the other piece, his pinky simply got in the way.

Now you can see that if he was a new player and no one knew how he touches pieces it would be really very tough to call, because you dont know if it was accident or not. Literally you could say that he did touch the other piece first and you might not give him benefit of doubt n the pinky.

Some players could not understand the ruling, thinking that if he touched it first he has to move it.

In Spitechecks case, it sounds like a bad call, clearly the guy had written down the move as a queen move. Bad call! Replay!

Feb-14-03  Spitecheck: It's still an ambiguous rule as FIDE has written it, in the case of my friend, some at the venue argued that he had intentionally touched the King (in the physical sense)....it just wasn't his intention to move it LOL. Like Taimanov here, he probably did actually physically pick up his King, when it was actually his Bishop he wanted to pick up (and play to e7) as opposed to simply brushing against it. Eventually most people told my friend the solution, unless an arbiter actually see's this happen, he probably just should have picked up the King and put it back where it was, and than moved the bishop.....if the opponent complains.....deny everything LOL.....you played the move intended, your opponent should not benefit because of your physical impediments, he should benefit from your errant chess ability instead.
Nov-22-03  Bears092: <When I played competitive chess, if I remember correctly, there was a similar rule for blitz games. Thank you for reminding me what I have forgotten!>

Correct.

I don't know if it's universal, but around here, we call it "clock move"

Nov-22-03  drukenknight: Yeah, I agree Spite, the rule is ambiguous.

On the clock move: They call it "push move" and I think that is the more universal name. It means that you can take back the move up until you push the clock.

That is not the rule in Official Rules of Blitz, or whatever that organization is. THey still play touch move.

But a lot of people playing in the park or whatever they play push move. So it's not an official blitz rule at least not for some orgxn; but it is a common rule.

Nov-22-03
Premium Chessgames Member
  Sneaky: The problem with "push move" or "clock move" is that you can make a move, take it back, make another move, take it back, adjust your pieces, toss a piece in the air and put it back on the board, ad nauseum. Is your opponent supposed to watch you like a hawk to make sure you don't misplace a piece? What if he thinks you disturbed the position and you maintain that you didn't?

It's touch move for me.

Nov-22-03  Spitecheck: Or how's about take all the pieces off the board one by one and polish them with concrete :). That's true Sneaky but I don't think GM's or even mid level player's are known for such behavior (except maybe Kasparov when he was playing Polgar LOL). That type of feature is prominent in novices or low rated players. I've come across one player who felt obliged to hang on to the piece he touched, LOL, like so he wouldn't forget.....his hand became almost a permanent feature on the chess board as he started reanalysing the move. The rule will never change.

Spitecheck

Nov-30-03  PinkPanther: <That's true Sneaky but I don't think GM's or even mid level player's are known for such behavior (except maybe Kasparov when he was playing Polgar LOL).>

I've heard that story as well. What were the particulars of that fiasco?

Nov-30-03  Spitecheck: Well based purely on an article I read on the web, truth afterall is nothing more than fiction on a bad hair day.

Apparently Kasparov moved one of his knights to a square, took his hand off the piece than picked it up again and moved it to a different square. A violation of the laws of chess as we all know. Polgar objected but was turned down by the arbiter and the game continued, later a camera in the tournament hall indeed showed that Kasparov had completed a move and than took it back and played another.

Arbiter's decision is final though so the game stood. Other might no more details, such as which game it was etc.

Spitecheck

Feb-27-06  MorphyMatt: 6... Ke7 isn't the greatest of moves, but why resign?
Feb-27-06  aw1988: Nxd5 is an option, but Black was probably disgusted in general.
Nov-01-08  I Offer You A Resign: Agreed.
Dec-24-08  WhiteRook48: silly. J'adoube is dumb so I will not want to play in a chess tournament
May-14-09  WhiteRook48: 6...Ke7???
Jun-02-09  zealouspawn: its called "clock move" where i'm from in nc... haven't heard push move before
Jun-02-09  blackburne: False game. This is the game:

Bagirov,V (2480) - Taimanov,M (2530) [D35]
URS-ch FL45 Baku (13), 1977

1.d4 Cf6 2.c4 e6 3.Cf3 d5 4.Cc3 Cbd7 5.cxd5 exd5 6.Ag5 c6 7.Dc2 Ad6 8.e3 Cf8 9.Ad3 Cg6 10.0-0-0 0-0 11.Ch4 h6 12.Cxg6 fxg6 13.Ah4 g5 14.Ag3 Axg3 15.hxg3 Cg4 16.Td2 Dd6 17.Te1 Ad7 18.e4 dxe4 19.Cxe4 Db4 20.Dc4+ Dxc4+ 21.Axc4+ Rh8 22.f3 Cf6 23.Cc5 b5 24.Ab3 Tae8 25.Te5 Ac8 26.g4 Cd7 27.Cxd7 Axd7 28.Tde2 Td8 29.Te7 Tf4 30.Tf7 Ae8 31.Txf4 gxf4 32.Te4 g5 33.Te6 Rg7 34.d5 c5 35.Te7+ Af7 36.Txa7 c4 37.Ac2 Txd5 38.Ae4 Tc5 39.a3 Rf6 40.Rc2 h5 41.Ta6+ Re7 42.Ta7+ Rf6 43.Ta6+ Re7 44.gxh5 Axh5 45.Tc6 Te5 46.Rc3 Ae8 47.Th6 Tc5 48.Rd4 Tc8 49.Ad5 Ad7 50.Re5 c3 51.Th7+ Rd8 52.Th8+ Re7 53.Th7+ Rd8 54.bxc3 Txc3 55.Rd6 Ae8 56.Tb7 Tc8 57.Ae4 Ta8 58.Tb6 Tc8 59.Af5 Ta8 60.Ae6 Ag6 61.Ad5 Tc8 62.Txb5 Re8 63.Tb7 Rf8 64.Re6 Tc5 65.Rf6 Txd5 66.Rxg6 g4 67.Tf7+ Rg8 68.Txf4 gxf3 69.gxf3 Td6+ 70.Rg5 Rg7 71.a4 Td3 72.Rg4 Ta3 73.Tb4 Rf6 74.f4 Ta1 75.Tb6+ Rg7 76.Ta6 Ta2 77.Rg5 Tg2+ 78.Rf5 Tc2 79.a5 Tc5+ 80.Rg4 Tc1 81.Tb6 Ta1 82.a6 Ta5 83.f5 Ta1 84.Rf4 Rf7 85.Re5 Ta5+ 86.Re4 Re7 87.f6+ Rf7 88.Rd4 Rg6 89.Rc4 1-0

---------------

Feb-20-10  JimmyVermeer: If you move a piece illegally, you are required to take it back and replace it with a legal move. The arbiter cannot simply make you forfeit the game because you made an illegal move.

If you touch a piece accidentally, such as brushing a piece with your pinkie while intending to pick up another piece with your thumb and index finger, you should not be obligated to move it.

If an arbiter makes a bad call, that person should be forbidden from being an arbiter in the future.

I had an unfortunate experience playing chess on Yahoo! games once - I forgot to change the table type to protected, and I was temporarily disconnected from the game. When I returned, I found someone else had taken my spot. The other player left and I resumed playing, but I found that the player who took my spot made a very bad move for me. I requested my opponent to take back the move and she refused. Also, my clock was running while I was waiting for her to take back the move, so I was in time trouble as well. I ended up losing that game because someone made a very bad move on my behalf while I was disconnected. I'm still bitter about it.

blackburne, are you sure this is the same game as the one you posted? These 2 might have faced each other multiple times in 1977.

Feb-20-10
Premium Chessgames Member
  Phony Benoni: <blackburne> appears to be correct; this is the correct game score:

Bagirov vs Taimanov, 1977

In this particular case, the problem seems to be a touch-move error by somebody inputting the games into a database. They probably noticed their mistake and stopped, but then compounded the matter by adding the fragment to the database anyway. Then everything just got copied without anybody checking (though who has time for that?). Happens all the time.

As for the touch-move rule itself, I agree it's unpleasant. However, it's also necessary in competition; there's just too much scope for abuse without it.

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