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| Jun-12-06 |
| Kharjov: My question is not wheather or not the Sac 17. ... Rxf2!!! (or ?!!) is really sound/leads to a forced win, its what did Morphy see? Does anyone really think that Morphy saw 61. ... Kf1! when he played his move? If he did I question wheather he was human! and if he didn't see it why did he play it? 22.Kc1! would be easy for him to see so what did he think he had? |
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| Jun-25-06 |
| THE pawn: I thought over this move for dozens of hours, and to me ( no I am not a GM) it is entirely sound, at least devilishly hard to refute. <I question wheather he was human!>
In my opinion Morphy is the best tactitian of all time and he would surely have hit the 2800 rating. I had the chance to study about 35 games from him, and he could find all the lines of an extremely deep move in a matter of minutes. This is extraordinary. |
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| Jun-25-06 |
| RookFile: Most people think about the sacrifices in the middlegame which occur in this game. To me, the opening intrigues me. 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 f5. About 20 years ago, this was regarded as unsound for black. However, later analysis shows that this isn't so simple. This opening leads to double edged positions, and I'm seriously considering adding it to my repetoire. |
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Jun-26-06
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| Joshka: <Rookfile> Even if white were to play 3.Bc4 instead of the text? |
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Jun-26-06
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| RandomVisitor: Ok... Here's my take on this famous game.
White should play:
22. Kc1! a5 23. Qc2 Qa3+ and now my improvement on previous analysis: 25. Kb1!? Ba6 (25... Qxc3 26. Rc1 Qh3 27. Bg3 =) 26. Rhe1 Bxe2 (26... Qxb2+ 27. Kxb2 bxc3+ 28. Kxc3 Bb4+ 29. Kc2 Bxe1 30. Rxe1 Bxe2 31. Rxe2 unclear) 27. Rxe2 Qa4 28. Rde1 Bxh2 29. Qa2 bxc3+ 30. Ka1 unclear) again, this is after just starting to look at the game. |
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| Jun-27-06 |
| RookFile: Hi Joshka: after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. Bc4, the Openings explorer for this database awards the best score, and a plus score at that, for black with 3.... Be6. |
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Jun-27-06
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| RandomVisitor: Oops... In my above post the line should begin: 22. Kc1 a5 23. Qc2 Qa3+ <24. Qb2 axb4> and now 25.Kb1. |
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Jul-03-06
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| LIFE Master AJ: <RV> Your numbering in the June 26th post looks messed up. (You jump from move 23 to move 25.) |
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Jul-04-06
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| LIFE Master AJ: <RandomVisitor>
I took several hours to investigate your line. I used the straight Fritz 9 interface, and gave it 1,500 MB for RAM. (I generally gave it at least three minutes per ply as well.) This is what I came up with:
25. b1!?, (Inferior?) 25... a6;
This is interesting, as is taking on c3 with the Queen here. < [25...Qxc3; 26.Rc1 Qa3!;
This is better for Black, as 27.Rxc6 is now answered by 27...e3!; (opening the h7-b1 diagonal); which wins on the spot.] > Now I follow your analysis for a little while.
26. he1 xe2; 27. xe2 a4; 28. de1 b3!; 29. a1 a3; 30. g3 a8; 31. e3 c4; 32. xc7 a6; 33.h4 c1!;
( ) Black is winning in all lines.
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Jul-04-06
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| LIFE Master AJ: I must add that I doubt anyone but a Super-GM could find such moves, at the onset, (when I first started looking at these lines without the aid of the computer) ... I felt that Black had very little compensation for the sacrificed material. |
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| Oct-02-06 |
| Operation Mindcrime: Interesting and exhaustive analysis there. The "Guinness Book Of Chess Grandmasters", however, is a bit dismissive, stating that if Bird hadn't played 25. c2? the game might be a draw. Apparently this is not so... |
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Jan-27-07
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| dougrhess: 22. ... Bf5 is mentioned by a couple programs as a follow up to 22. Kc1. Although it seems that 11.g4 is a blunder. No? |
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Nov-13-07
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| nimh: Rybka 2.4 mp, AMD X2 2.01GHz, 10 min per move, threshold 0.33. Bird 5 mistakes:
9.Nh5 -0.29 (9.c4 0.15)
10.Qd2 -0.71 (10.Be2 -0.28)
11.g4 -1.88 (11.Bxf6 -0.70)
22.Kb2 -5.24 (22.Kc1 -0.15)
25.Kc2 -5.44 (25.Ka2 -3.66)
Morphy 3 mistakes:
5...d5 1.16 (5...Nf6 0.68)
13...Nc6 -1.33 (13...c5 -1.90)
17...Rxf2 -0.09 (17...Bb4 -1.16)
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Dec-09-07
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| Joshka: <Patzer2> 22. well the computer I have Fritz 8 gives 22.Kc1 0.00...guess ya can't get more drawish than that;-) |
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| May-19-08 |
| Jesspatrick: Personally, I think that Bird's 4.Nc3, though not bad, is not a serious test of Black's idea. I'd rather see 4.dxe5 fxe4 5.Ng5 |
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May-19-08
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| keypusher: <Jesspatrick>
As I recall there was some analysis by Zukertort (not of this game, but of the Staunton/Owen-Morphy/Barnes consultation game) that gave 4. Nc3 fxe4 5. Nxe4 d5 6. Nxe5! According to <nimh>'s Rybka, Morphy's 5...d5 was a mistake anyway. Of course, this was a cutting-edge line back in 1858 (and maybe now -- don't some books recommend 3...f5?), and there was lots of analysis for 4. dxe5, 4. Bc4 and 4. Nc3. |
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May-19-08
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| InspiredByMorphy: <keypusher> It is true that 5. ...d5 loses a pawn to 6.Nxe5, however black doesen't accept the en prise knight and instead plays 6. ...Nf6 . Giving black a solid position with the open f file, just a pawn down. Quite similar to an open f file you may see in a kings gambit accepted as white. Play might continue 7.Nxf6 Qxf6  click for larger viewOf course given whites response in the text, the move produced more favorable results than had the stronger move 5. ...Nf6 been played. The arguement will never be answered on the topic of whether Morphy knew he was playing a risky move that may lose a pawn which may lose the game, or whether he didn't know the line. I I lean more on the first of the two possibilities. |
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| May-19-08 |
| Jesspatrick: There is a blog devoted to this opening and its contemporary play. http://contregambitphilidor.blogspo...
Take the games with a grain of salt. His variation index is good, though.
I've got to admit, this opening intrigues me, and I've got special prep on the white side. I'll publish the analysis after I get a chance to try my ideas out on a few practitioners. Without a doubt, the leading practitioner of this opening is Jim West. http://jimwestonchess.blogspot.com/ |
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May-20-08
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| keypusher: <Inspired By Morphy> That is a good point about the 6. Nxe5 line. <The arguement will never be answered on the topic of whether Morphy knew he was playing a risky move that may lose a pawn which may lose the game, or whether he didn't know the line.> I don't know the answer either, but it's telling that Morphy avoided the whole 3....f5 variation in serious games. |
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| Aug-03-09 |
| MrMelad: The thing I like most about this game besides the glorious rook sac, is that in the final position after 30.Kd1 Qxh8 all of the white pieces are located awful and participating to form a nice but useless square. Bird obviously didn't intend to reach such a position... Morphy took him for a ride across the sky and left him falling when he couldn't hold on :) |
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| Nov-03-09 |
| morphyesque: If 22.kc1 according to Maroczy white could have forced a draw by perpetual check as the bishop sacrifice at b4 is incorrect, thus ....bb4 23.cb rb4 24.qg5 qa3+ 25.kd2 rb2+ 26.ke1 re2+ 27.ke2 qf3+ 28.ke1 qh1+ 29.qg1 qf3 30.qg3 etc.If Bird had played 22.kc1 would Morphy have played for a draw since the ramifications of 17....rf2 could not have been seen in their entirety as there is no forced mate.A possible continuation could have been 22....a5 and white must play 23.qc2 for if instead 23.bg3 ab there is no time for 24.bd6 qa1+ 25.kc2 b3 mate nor 24 qb2 bc 25.qb8 ba3+ 26.kb1 c2+ 27.ka2 bc1 mate.Also 23.rhg1 intending the rook sac at g7 won't work because of ..bf5 24.qc2 qc2+ 25.kc2 e3+ |
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Dec-07-09
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| kingscrusher: Looking through the 6 pages of comments, it is becoming quite evident to me that the game context is misunderstood. Morphy is misunderstood. The impact of the "Cafe de La Regeance" is misunderstood. The impact of not yet having Steinitz writings about chess is misunderstood. This game was in the Romantic era. The Romantic era was about combination and beauty. Places like the Cafe de La Regeance were spectator and interest driven. People were seen as having guts to accept sacrifices even if it was risk. And the same with those playing sacrifices. So to run this game over with an engine is a misunderstanding of the game at a fundamental level. Here is what the 1st official World Champion Steinitz said about Morphy: "Being the greatest player of the old school, Morphy naturally exhibits most profound mastery in the sacrificing tactics directed against any weakness in the adverse king's quarters once he holds the grip of the game. But he sometimes also hazards impetuously for the purpose of precipitating a crisis, especially against a player whom he knows to be below his force. To use a philosophical illustration he employs the subjective in preference to the objective reasoning for the purpose of getting the best of the argument." (Editors note: i.e. Morphy took unnecessary risks)" And who do you think raised the "internal quality" (objectivity) standards of understanding the game of chess through his writing? Who do you think taught players when attacks were bound to be successful or not?! Who published ideas about weak squares, and other sophisticated elements of positional chess?! It was Steinitz - the 1st official world champion. Morphy was the "old school" with old school values. So please, see much of the kibitzing of this game as largely unsympathetic to the fact this is a Pre-Steinitzian game and it was played in the Romantic era of chess! |
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Dec-07-09
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| tamar: The games with Bird occurred while Morphy was waiting for a reply from Staunton to a letter sent Aug 14, 1858, with the slightly impatient phrasing "Would you be good enough to state some early period when your seconds can meet mine...?" Morphy score in their games was +10 -1 =1, and Morphy seemed out not only to prove he was a worthy challenger, but
to create a sensation with this game that Staunton could not ignore. |
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| Jan-07-10 |
| GaeBulg: Interesting to see that Morphy fulfills Philidor's original intention for his opening with 3. f5! 17. Rxf2!! may or may not be "objectively" the greatest move. But boy is it interesting haha. If I had Morphy's talent, and saw a chance like this, I'd probably take it too just so the resulting game would look a whole lot more interesting. |
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| Feb-05-10 |
| coldfusion700: Actually, Morphy is the player in his time who has already transcended the "old school of chess". He is the anti-thesis of romantic era of daring sacrifices. Here's what wikipedia has to say about him: "Today many amateurs think of Morphy as a dazzling combinative player, who excelled in sacrificing his queen and checkmating his opponent a few brilliant moves later. One reason for this impression is that chess books like to reprint his flashy games. There are games where he did do this, but it was not the basis of his chess style. In fact, the masters of his day considered his style to be on the conservative side compared to some of the flashy older masters like La Bourdonnais and Anderssen. Morphy can be considered the first modern player. Some of his games do not look modern because he did not need the sort of slow positional systems that modern grandmasters use, or that Staunton, Paulsen, and later Steinitz developed. His opponents had not yet mastered the open game, so he played it against them and he preferred open positions because they brought quick success. He played open games almost to perfection, but he also could handle any sort of position, having a complete grasp of chess that was years ahead of his time. Morphy was a player who intuitively knew what was best" Bird vs Morphy, 1858
This game is not really a good representative game for his playing style. If you want a real representative game of Morphy, the "Opera Game" is one of the best as it shows Morphy's mastery of the open game. Morphy in this game might have considered the move Rxf2 as risky but played it anyway to please the crowds. |
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