< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 4 ·
|Mar-23-12|| ||James D Flynn: I looked at this position for while and could see no way of avoiding Black checking continuously on the a file. The K can approacj the R but cannot take without allowing Black's a1+. He cannot take shelter on g7 because of a1+ and if he tries for shelter on the 2nd rank e.g at d2 or c2 Black has the reply Rc3 when Kxc3 allows a1+. I therefore concluded that I must be missing something and looked at the game , which of course was drawn for the reasons I have given. Since there is no winning plan for White I am puzzed by why he didnít take the draw in a few moves by moving his K between e6 and d5. Black has to keep checking to avoid mate on h8 or c8 and we would have a draw in 3 moves at most.|
|Mar-23-12|| ||viking78: <kevin86> o yes White can do it! read above LTJ comment, think that covers all posibilities.|
|Mar-23-12|| ||Pawn and Two: Unfortunately for Bogoljubov, he missed the winning method, as noted by Alekhine in the tournament book: 79.Kd5 Ra5+ 80.Kc4 Ra4+ 81.Kb3 Ra3+ 82.Kc2! Rc3+ 83.Kb2!.|
Interestingly, both players were unaware of this missed opportunity. In the introduction to the tournament book, Thomas stated: <In my first game against Bogoljubov, we agreed to a draw -- after a very fluctuating struggle -- in a position where Bogoljubov had a perfectly simple win. I was no more aware of it than my opponent; but I have never witnessed a more spontaneous unanimity of purpose than that with which the other continental players invaded our board, the instant the draw was accepted, to demonstrate to Bogoljubov the extreme simplicity of the winning method.>
Thomas was certainly being honest, and a good sportsman, in admitting that he too had overlooked the winning method.
Alekhine was apparently one of the players that Thomas mentioned, who demonstrated the win the moment the draw was accepted.
Then in the tournament book Alekhine provided the winning line and stated: <However, a win for White would have been a matter of luck, and a draw is a satisfactory conclusion.>
Apparently, Alekhine was one of the masters who had pointed out the simple win at the conclusion of the game, yet in the tournament book he concluded it would have been a matter of luck for Bogoljubov to have found it! Also, Alekhine's conclusion that a draw was a satisfactory result, while no doubt true for Thomas, was certainly not true for Bogoljubov.
Perhaps Alekhine was giving Bogoljubov a little payback. A few months earlier in the Breyer Memorial in Pistyan, Bogoljubov had won the tournament by edging out Alekhine and Spielmann by 1/2 point. Alekhine had led the tournament by 1/2 point with only three rounds to go, but then he conceded a draw to Spielmann, and later a draw to Reti in the last round, while Bogoljubov was winning the tournament, by winning his last four games.
Then at the London tournament, which was just prior to the Hastings tournament, the short draw between Alekhine and Capablanca, became as issue of contention between Alekhine and Bogoljubov. On page 193 of Winter's "Capablanca", it is stated that Alekhine accused Bogoljubov of incorrectly alledging the short draw between Alekhine and Capaablanca at London, 1922 had been prearranged.
|Mar-23-12|| ||kevin86: I must admt-this is an EXTREMELY complex position after nearly 80 moves...and with only 6 pieces on the board!|
|Mar-23-12|| ||andachamp: all i can say is that white has manage to get initiative but made a couple of mistakes on the end game that's why black salvage a draw! But, it was a very interesting battle.|
|Mar-23-12|| ||Calli: Bogo was too hasty at Hastings to accept the draw offer, but Thomas played an excellent and maybe winning game earlier. His 47...g5 allows 48.c4! And if Bxc4 then 49.Nxc4 Rxc4 50.Rxg5+ Kf6 51.Rxa5 is a dead draw. Thomas should have moved the king up first 47..Kf6 and later the g-pawn.|
|Mar-23-12|| ||Pawn and Two: <Calli: Bogo was too hasty at hastings to accept the draw offer,....>|
It was Bogo who made the draw offer in this game. After 78...Ra6+, Alekhine noted in the tournament book: <"White here proposed a draw, overlooking that he could have won by 79.Kd5 Ra5+; 80.Kc4 Ra4+; 81.Kb3 Ra3+; 82.Kc2 Rc3+; 83.Kb2....">
Thomas admitted that he too had not seen the winning method. Note his description, in my last post, of the other masters invading their board, at the moment the draw was agreed, to point out the winning method.
The other masters all found the winning method, yet in the tournament book, Alekhine stated that a win for White would have been a matter of luck, and that a draw was a satisfactory conclusion!
|Mar-23-12|| ||YouRang: It looks to me like white can head for the c2 square, where black can only give check via ...Rc3+. (Also there's ...a1=N+, but that's another topic).|
Then it seems the white king moves to b2 and wins the a-pawn.
The white king then must march back to place itself at c8, where he guards Pc7 and is shielded from checks. At that point, he can maneuver the rook h7 to h6 to a6 to a7 to b7 and (I think) finally promote the c-pawn.
There may be some questions along the way, but this is the only hope I can see for a white win.
|Mar-23-12|| ||Memethecat: Looked like a draw, but now I think I've got a win, the K has to hop-scotch down the ranks avoiding the long DS diagonal, till he gets to the 2nd rank. Black has to keep checking, a change of mind ...Ra8 wont work: Rh8+ K~ Rxa8 & a2/1. a1 wont work either, unless it checks the WK.|
79Kd5 Ra5+ 80Ke4 Ra4+ 81Kf3 Ra3+ 82Kg2 wins
blacks other try:
<I wrote all of the above knowing I would have to analyse what would happen if the R came to the middle & checked when I crossed the long diagonal. During that analysis I realised this would give black the chance to get behind the pawn, not good. So I came up with the following, but left the above in place so folk could see my thought process>
79Kd5 Ra5+ 80Kc4 Ra4+ 81Kb3 Ra3+ 82Kc2 Rc3+ 83Kb2 wins. A K fork
Sharp intake of breath, but a bit of reading & all is well. Pleased as punch☺
|Mar-23-12|| ||psmith: At first I thought this was easy. Then I realized that after 79. Kd5 Ra5+ 80. Kc6 Ra6+ 81. Kb7 Ra7+! Black might be able to draw. But I think White can win by heading to c2. 80. Kc4 Ra4+ 81. Kb3 Ra3+ 82. Kc2 Rc3+ (or 82Ö a1/N+ 83.Kb2) 83. Kb2 and wins. Actually I think this will work even after the above line leading to 81Ö.Ra7+. Maybe this isnít so hard after all. Or maybe I am all wet. Letís see. I think it works!|
|Mar-23-12|| ||chrisowen: George (5.bxc6+) modern steinitz defence in low again draws har pluck for GAT suit house wind sorrow in good a4a3? kd8 was required when kc8 stop in mighty pc7 wake up the fire in gate. I think in was it hope in kingd5 indeed <79...ra5+ kc4 ra4+ kb3 ra3+> |
Now isnt it kingc2! electric wet in boogie on down then millipede making bee-line now had rc3 83.kb2 other it looses and shave nick off in time a1 not quick enough in every pretty king storming too big climax by escalate along b-column,
<84.kxa1 rc1+ 85.kb2 rc5 86.kb3 rc1 87.ka4 rc5 88.rg7 rc1 89.kb5 rc3 90.ka6 rc1 91.kb7 rb1+>
Tag bet in c8 rook will force in sine wave rxc8 rxc8 sax for cots cleave into.
|Mar-23-12|| ||Memethecat: <chrisowen> Your going the wrong way, people descend into madness, not the other way around☺. Your answers are definitely getting easier to understand. Hang on, maybe its my mind thats changing.|
|Mar-23-12|| ||dragon player: The first thing I noticed was that white is in check.
That's not very common in a puzzle. White has only three
moves, so that makes it a little bit easier.
79.Ke5 is no option because of 79...a1(Q). If white
wasn't in check he could promote with mate, so he has
to find a shelter for the checks. He could go to g7 or
to the b-file, or to the second rank. g7 is no option
for the same obvious reason. But I don't see the
difference in going to the b-file or the second rank.
Hang on, I see something. If white goes to the b-file,
black can keep giving check because if white captures
the rook on the a-file, black promotes with check. So white
has to go to the second rank:
If 79.Kf5 Rc6
80.Rh8+ and 81.Rxa8
Hang on, this doesn't work either. Now black can play
82...Rc3!. I really don't get this. What důes work?
I give up. I really don't know.
Time to check.
In the game they agreed a draw.
Lets check the kibitzing.
|Mar-23-12|| ||chrisowen: <Memethecat> King in tent it lag in was it omnipresence in fee it hole in gun back yo net in tease it a2 in key it is red hot rook h7 in low cant afford to drop c7 good to go.|
Bid in gash it tumble prominent in a3 flop it tame in c7 or kettle a fish apeing free in rad i often call it IEF in epee foiled again (log in draw) smoke the doublet ease hinge bind a3 d8 and it recoup in screwed it labour in for king gobble try it huck in gate bore a2 penetrate d5 leaving queen in might it fashioned agile it street in ascent i trace kingd5 b2 alive h7 ie piece up in g7 for camped it dog in dig ebullient it lavish in queena1 conked in surmise it akin lucidity in hill,
Crest am packing a mental note line up ra8 gm EB a ti seeking bubble in wellit isnt his day...
|Mar-23-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <SloVice> Thanks for the kind words, man! I'm glad you enjoyed it. |
|Mar-23-12|| ||numbersguy70: As a paying member, I am quite annoyed by puzzles that have no clear solution in either the moves or the annotations. They are second in annoyance only to posts which consume dozens of lines of page space and contribute little or no value.|
|Mar-23-12|| ||galdur: I remember this one from years ago. Itīs a straightforward win. The king goes to c2 via the white squares. After it picks up the pawn it goes to c8 and the white rook covers any attacks by its counterpart.|
|Mar-23-12|| ||Diademas: Nice job LTJ!
I guess that covers all the bases.
|Mar-23-12|| ||Patriot: Material is even.
White is in check and both pawns are one square shy of being queens. If white can avoid checks he will win. And he must avoid walking onto the a1-h8 diagonal or the a-file or h-file to prevent a1=Q+.
The only way to win seems to be to use the a-pawn as a shield. So 79.Kf5 looks fine. For example 79...Rf6+ 80.Kg5. But perhaps 79.Kd5 is best since black cannot get behind the c-pawn. I'll go with that.
79.Kd5 Ra5+ (79...Ra8 80.Rh8+ Kd7 81.Rxa8 ) 80.Kc4 Ra4+ 81.Kd3 Ra3+ (81...Rd4+ 82.Ke3 ) 82.Ke2
But I think there are many ways to win this: 79.Kd5, 79.Ke5, or 79.Kf5. The key is staying off the a1-h8 diagonal, avoid perpetual, and use the a2-pawn as a shield on the second rank. But also I would avoid b3 and c2 to avoid promotion to a knight with check.
|Mar-23-12|| ||Patriot: Well I believe I goofed on this. 79.Kd5 appears to be the only way to win.|
|Mar-23-12|| ||Patriot: There's definitely more to this than I thought! 81.Ra3+ Kc2! 82.Rc3+ Kb2! That's the key!|
|Mar-23-12|| ||MarkFinan: If white can keep his king on the light squares, it seems pretty cut and dried to me!|
|Mar-23-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <Diademas> Thank you for the kind words, man. This was a fun puzzle to solve and I'm glad that you found my solution to be correct and comprehensive.|
|Mar-23-12|| ||Kinghunt: I believe the specific moves aren't important here, so long as white plays to walk his king down towards the a2 pawn while ensuring that the pawn cannot queen with check. (This means that if the rook checks on the a file, it cannot be taken.) Clearly, this requirement means the king cannot go to b2, but it has a haven on c2: the rook cannot check it there from the a file, and if it leaves the a file without a check, white can queen and mate. Black could promote to a knight with check, but then Kb2 and the black rook can't guard against queening and protect the knight at the same time. The white king will then walk back up the board and establish a basic Lucena position.|
|Mar-23-12|| ||MarkFinan: <kinghunt> Thats exactly what i meant to say, you just explained it better. :)|
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