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Jul-01-05
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| iron maiden: <by the way in that story Bronstein names the final position the "Zugzwang!", so i guess i finished the previous debate> Not necessarily. A lot of the top players disagree about what the exact definition of zugzwang is. There seems to be no real consensus. |
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| Jul-01-05 |
| Autoreparaturwerkbau: You guys here must have a difficulty mixing 2 simple terms: - Zugzwang, which is:
In chess, zugzwang (German for "compulsion to move") occurs when one player is put at a disadvantage because he or she has to make a move — the player would like to pass and make no move, but the fact that the player must make one means being forced into a weaker position. Normally in chess, having tempo is a good thing, since the player with the chance to move has greater power by being able to choose the "best" next move. Zugzwang typically occurs when all the moves available are "bad" moves, and better moves might be available if the player did not need to move at the current moment. Zugzwang most often occurs in the endgame when the number of pieces, and so the number of possible moves, is reduced, and the exact move chosen is often more critical. For instance an endgame: wKd5, bPe5, wPe4, bKf4. Whoever is to move in this position loses the game — they must abandon their own pawn, thus allowing their opponent to capture it and go on to promote their own pawn. Because this is zugzwang no matter who is to move next, this is an example of: - mutual or reciprocal zugzwang.
So we have 2 terms of which second is only a part of first. The second term (mutual or reciprocal zugzwang), which is subterm of zugzwang obviously makes confusion in chess world. The point of having a tempo in chess is improvement of our position, because we have a power to make the choice to improve the position with the very next move. In a rare case when having a tempo can only worsen our position (no matter which legal move we make) - exactly then we can speak about zugzwang. If our opponent moves again and we can only worsen the position again, then we can say we had two zugzwangs in a row and so on. On the other side, to establish those facts, the subterm mutual or reciprocal zugzwang (which is even much rarer than zugzwang itself) means that no matter whose turn it is, they both can only worsen the position. If you have any further questions about zugzwang feel free to write here. |
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| Jul-01-05 |
| paladin at large: Mensch, <Autoreparaturenwerkbau> das war eine lange Erklärung. Sie haben auch einen schrecklich langen Namen - wieso? I can't remember ever seeing a mutual or reciprocal Zugzwang,and I am not sure it exists, for the simple reason, I suppose, that the player who is not under Zugzwang is able to take advantage of the "bad" move the first player makes, and improves his position after that "bad" move. Otherwise, the first Zugzwang would not have existed. Can you find an example of mutual or reciprocal Zugzwang in the database? |
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| Jul-01-05 |
| Happypuppet: <paladin at large>: Place a White King on d5 and a White Pawn on e4. Then place a Black king on f4 and a Black Pawn on e5. That's mutual zugzwang. Whoever's move it is loses the pawn. |
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| Jul-02-05 |
| paladin at large: Only one person has the move. That person is under Zugzwang. The one who does not have to move is not in Zugzwang - so the concept of mutual zugzwang as I see it so far is meaningless. |
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| Jul-02-05 |
| aw1988: Zugzwang is only when the losing side is compelled to move, where he loses instantly, whereas if he could pass the move over to the winner he would be all right. In other words: compulsion to move with deadly consequences. We're talking about immediate threats, not long king invasions. |
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| Jul-02-05 |
| Autoreparaturwerkbau: <paladin at large> I see your trouble. So if i am correct, you think, what is the point of cogitating over mutual zugzwang (that is "no matter whose turn it is, they both can only worsen the position") if only one side has the turn. The point is that by triangulation (to refer only to one of techniques in e.g. K+Ps endings) and other techniques of "catching the right time to be on the right spot" you can make favor of the situation the way its your opponent who has to move when it comes down to mutual zugzwang. I will give you a simple example of mutual zugzwang with only 1 pawn left: White-Kb6, Pc7, Black-Kc8. With these 3 pieces only on the board, whoever turn it is, he loses instantly (or in case of white's move he only manages to draw). As said - with the right technique you can make mutual zugzwang work for you if you make sure its your opponent who has to move first. In addition to the case above, had white additional pawn on - let's say - c4, then its not Mutual zugzwang anymore but it is a "unmutual" = normal = basic zugzwang, because white has an option of moving c4-c5, which is not a draw yet. On the other hand, if the additional white's pawn is put on c5 instead of c4, then we have mutual zugzwang again, because c5-c6 is a draw again, which is a "bad" move - again. |
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| Jul-02-05 |
| paladin at large: <Autoreparaturwerkbau> I understand triangulation and the opposition. There is no mutual Zugzwang in the realities you describe, which is worth describing. <aw1988> describes Zugzwang correctly. The side which has played well enough to place the other player in Zugzwang is under no "mutual Zugzwang" because the situation you describe, of him theoretically having to move - does not exist. This mutuality you refer to will not trouble him in the slightest. The first side under Zugzwang will suffer real pain - usually leading to loss. Your mutual Zugzwang is no more real than imminent threats of checkmate by both sides - mutual checkmate you would call it. Whoever checkmates first has won, and the loser has no comforting reality reflected in any kind of mutuality that your referred to. |
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| Jul-02-05 |
| Autoreparaturwerkbau: Sorry <paladin>, i don't have time to learn about the definition of zugzwang and mutual zugzwang if you don't want to understand it. <Sneaky> already explained it here Kaplan vs Bronstein, 1975 You can find the theory about zugzwang and mutual zugzwang here: http://www.calchess.org/information... page 24 - mutual zugzwang (case)
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| Jul-03-05 |
| paladin at large: Thanks <Autoreparaturwerkbau> your pedagogical zeal is admirable. I get it - but I don't find it significant for the reason that the only thing that is important is the insight of the player who leads the other player into the Zugzwang. If you are pointing out an aesthetic attraction of the "mutual Zugzwang", I do not wish to argue with you. |
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| Jul-03-05 |
| Autoreparaturwerkbau: <paladin> Aestethic values don't interest me in any view. But I hardly agree with you saying: "but I don't find it [i.e. concept of mutual Zugzwang] significant for the reason that the only thing that is important is the insight of the player who leads the other player into the Zugzwang". Of course it is important. The knowledge (as in the link of a case i submitted) is the difference not only between winning and drawing but usually even losing (e.g. technique, how to approach to the couple of pawns in a trebuchet position - who gets there second, wins). Maybe it doesn't occur very often in play, but it sure is most important to know when it comes down to it. By the way, sorry for the lack of patience yesterday. I usually teach so long that everbody understands - without losing nerves like yesterday. |
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| Jul-03-05 |
| paladin at large: <Autoreparaturwerkbau> No need to apologize, you are very patient. I understand the practical situation you describe, it is only the term "mutual" I don't care for. |
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| Aug-08-05 |
| perfidious: Whatever pressure Bronstein may or may not have faced, the culprit in this critical game was his 'win' of a pawn with 35.... Bxc1, as noted by Botvinnik. |
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Oct-26-05
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| patzer2: After 57. Bg5!, all Black moves drop at least a pawn with a lost game ahead. |
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| Oct-26-05 |
| aw1988: However, <patzer2>, as was shown, 57. Bg5 Nc6 58. Bxd5 Nd6 59. Bf3 Kf5 60. Bc1 b5 61. Bxc6 bxc6 62. a5 would had to have been found at the board. |
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| Nov-28-05 |
| TigerPawns: this final position makes me very sad for wonderful bronstein. but one has to wonder whether it really cannot be drawn... wouldn't a draw have given bronstein the title? |
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Mar-29-06
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| whatthefat: <TigerPawns>
A draw here would have given Bronstein the title, as long as he didn't lose the final game. |
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Jun-06-07
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| talisman: what about 30. ...Kn(c)-b4? for bronstein? |
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Jan-03-08
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| mateifl: Was Bronstein decision to give up the bishop pair so early in the game wise? I'd say not. |
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Mar-23-08
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| Knight13: Bronstein thought for like 40 minutes in the last position and finally resigned. Beautiful demonstration of two bishops vs two knights. |
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Jun-25-08
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| TheaN: Is there a reason for Black not to play 56....N8e7? Maybe he was aiming at a d6-e4 jump, but this seems to defend: 56....N8e7 57.Bg5 Nf5! and Black ought to draw after 58.Bxd5 Ncxd4. What am I missing? |
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| Sep-22-08 |
| offramp: I believe this is a mutual zugzwang:
 click for larger view
Whoever has the move loses. It is called a trébuchet.
But I agree with the comments of <paladin at large> <I am not sure it exists, for the simple reason, I suppose, that the player who is not under Zugzwang is able to take advantage of the "bad" move the first player makes, and improves his position after that "bad" move. Otherwise, the first Zugzwang would not have existed.> |
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Sep-22-08
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| whiteshark: <ajile: <zug·zwang ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tsktsväng) n. >> I tried to spell it this way, but now I've a knot in my tongue. Can you please solve it! Tfankhs |
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| Nov-01-09 |
| GaeBulg: Rybka's eval is actually giving a slight edge to black here...(-1.04 at depth 26)
So why did he resign? Yes he has to lose a pawn, but he's up a pawn anyways and at least could have tried to draw it... |
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| Nov-01-09 |
| GaeBulg: I'm sorry, I misread Rybka's analysis. It does indeed give White the edge with +1.04; however, I still think Bronstein could have tried for the draw. |
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