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Federico Manca vs Fernando Braga
5, Reggio Emilia9293 (10s) (1992), Reggio Emilia ITA, rd 5
Philidor Defense: Nimzowitsch. Rellstab Variation (C41)  ·  1-0
ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Jan-31-06
Premium Chessgames Member
  al wazir: <alefromitaly: <dzechiel> read <al wazir> above... Saave The Beeest For Laaast, 23. Nd7# very nice... 23. Rxc8 less classy but also #, am I right?> Yes, you're right.

<Richard Taylor: Yes! More poetic than Rxc8#> I'm not sure poetic is the word, but I think it's rather elegant. Just look at the way the pieces are packed together, the black ♕ at kissing distance from white's ♖ and ♘ and hating it, and the black ♔ practically asphyxiated.

Jan-31-06  Trouble: what a bone
Jan-31-06  Cogano: Not to gloat, but I'm so happy I got a Tuesday puzzle, if only once. 20.Qc7+ Nxc7, 21.Nb6+ axb6, 22.Rd8#. I wonder what Wednesday's puzzle will be like. Take care all and have a great day. Cheers!
Feb-01-06  Cogano: <al wazir> Why 21...Kb8 as opposed to 21...axb6? The knight wasn't exposing a check from another piece for the king to be compelled to move. I wonder if you'd be good enough to enlighten me. Thanks much. Take very good care and have a great day. Cheers!
Feb-01-06  Cogano: Would someone please tell me what would have been wrong with 19...cxd5? I fail to see how White would then proceed to mate Black. Any help would be most grate-fully appreciated. Thanks a million to all. Take very good care and have a great day. Cheers!
Feb-01-06
Premium Chessgames Member
  chessgames.com: <Cogano> After 19...cxd5! there is no mate--in fact, Black would be winning. It's easy to see why Black was afraid of that continuation, however, as it leads to ♕xe6+ and ♖xd5, but objectively it was the best course.

We learned this with computer analysis because at first we wanted to make 19.♘d5 the key move, then we discovered that it's actually unsound.

Feb-01-06  Cogano: Hi <chessgames.com> and I hope this finds you well. Thank you for the analysis and confirming my theory. I feel even better now, knowing that both, by instinct as well as reasoning, I actually came up with Black's best move, des -pite my limited playing experience and positional knowledge & understanding -- especially since I don't have access to, and thus didn't use, any chess analysis computer engines. Thanks again. Take very good care and have a great day. Cheers!
Feb-01-06  Marco65: So maybe also 10...fxg5 was playable. Anybody with a computer to confirm this?
Feb-01-06
Premium Chessgames Member
  crafty: 10...fxg5 11. ♘xe5 ♕e7 12. ♘f7 ♕xe3+ 13. fxe3 ♖g8   (eval -0.66; depth 12 ply; 500M nodes)
Feb-01-06  Cogano: Hi <crafty> & I hope this finds you well. Say, why 12.Nf7, as opposed to 12.Bf7+, which would either force the king into the open d-file(& therefore open to attack from the a1-rook) or capture the queen. It looks like a superior move for White. Thanks for any feedback you can provide. Take very good care and have a great day. Cheers!
Feb-01-06
Premium Chessgames Member
  YouRang: Hi <Cogano>
FYI - <crafty> isn't actually a person. It's a chess analysis software that chessgames.com uses to evaluate certain positions. :)
Feb-01-06  Cogano: Hi <YouRang>. Great! Does that mean that I'm going to be dragged to an asylum next? LOL. They could've just posted that line as chessgames.com and indicate that they used a software called crafty for it. It's too bad they misled me like that. But no harm done, I guess. Thanks for pointing out the fact to me again. Why do you think it would suggest 12.Nf7, as opposed to my idea of 12.Bf7+? And do you think my idea is sound? If not, why? Thanks a bunch. Take very good care and have yourself a most joyous day, every day. Cheers!
Feb-01-06  Marco65: <Cogano> I previously posted that I don't see how to finish Black after 10...fxg5 11.Nxe5 Qe7 12.Bf7+ Kd8 13.O-O-O+ Bd7, Crafty probably agrees with my view, and takes a more materialistic approach trying to get at least the exchange back.

What I don't understand is its evaluation, after 10...fxg5 11.Nxe5 Qe7 12.Nf7 Qxe3+ 13.fxe3 Rg8?! if Black tries to save the rook White can at least draw with repetition with 14.Nxg5 Rh8 15.Nf7 Rg8 16.Ng5

But much better imho would be 13...b5! and White is down 2 minor pieces for a rook with a trapped knight in h8 in all variations, for instance 13...b5 14.Nxb5 cxb5 15.Bd5 Bb7 16.Bxb7 Nxb7 17.Nxh8

Maybe it's a "horizon" effect, can <Crafty> uses its silicon heart again to show what it thinks the best line is after 10...fxg5 11.Nxe5 Qe7 12.Nf7 Qxe3+ 13.fxe3 ? Is it still convinced of 13...Rg8 and why?

Feb-01-06  Cogano: Hi <Marco65> and I hope this finds you well. If you think Crafty agrees with you, then did he offer 12.Nf7 in his analysis, as opposed to 12.Bf7+? Thanks for the input. Take very good care and have a great day. Cheers!
Feb-01-06  TTLump: <crafty: 10...fxg5, 11.Nxe5 Qe7, 12.Nf7 Qxe3+, 13.fxe3 Rg8 (eval -0.66; depth 12 ply; 500M nodes)> ... a friend of yours respectfully disagrees with you.

ChessMaster7000 thinks this line is better for white: same moves through 11 and then ...
12. 0-0-0 Be6
13. Rhe1 Bxc4
14. Nxc4 Qxe3+
15. Rxe3+ Kf7, and from this position, white, down a piece, but way ahead in development and control of the board, still has nothing better than draw by perpetual check ... 16. Rf3+ Ke8
17. Re3+ Kf7
18. Rf3+ Ke7
19. Re3+ Kf6
20. Rf3+ Ke6
21. Re3+ Kf7
22. Rf3+ 1/2-1/2

... BUT, CM7000 agrees with crafty re: the best move after 10.Bc4 .... 10. ... Qg4!

Feb-02-06  Marco65: <Cogano> I considered 12.Bf7+ only because it seemed the more forcing to me, and I expected there was a winning variation I was missing. By intuition I thought that if 12.Bf7+ doesn't work no other line gives White compensation. My intuition was wrong of course as TTLump/ChessMaster7000 showed, but my conclusion that 12.Bf7+ doen't lead to anything was right, and only in that sense I said that Crafty "agrees with me".

Anyway a sacrifice by White that, if accepted, brings to a draw by repetition in the best line doens't exactly win a brilliancy price in my opinion...

Feb-02-06
Premium Chessgames Member
  al wazir: <Cogano: <al wazir> Why 21...Kb8 as opposed to 21...axb6?> It's not opposed to, it's in addition to. Black has a choice of moves, and strict correctness demands that the solver show a win in both continuations. (As noted, after 21...Kb8 white has two ways to finish black off.)
Feb-03-06  Cogano: Hi <al wazir> and I hope this finds you well. Thank you for the clarification. I assumed -- shame on me for doing so -- that you meant as opposed to, rather than consider the situation carefully enough to realize that you were merely accounting for ALL the possibilities.

Also, about the thematic g6, I don't understand the opening, and the accep-ted defences to it, that well. But, still, in my opinion, that defence is at least dangerous. Opening the King's position is a great sacrifice and makes White's job of attacking it that much easier. Also, just as happens in the centre, when either Black or White advances beyond the 4th & 5th rank respectively, it creates ideal posts for the knight. In the case of g6, they're obviously f6 & h6. I'm not sure or all that clear what adequate compen-sation Black gets for disrupting his Kingside. He could try to brave castling Queen-side, which would post the Queen's rook at its natural post of d8 and thereby boost his ability to defend the d-file. I don't know. Let me know what you think.

Also, <Marco65>, despite the fact that I'm an inexperienced player, I'm going to disagree with you and crafty, provided I did understand your last post, regarding 12.Bf7+. Surely rob-bing the Black King of the opportunity to castle and posting the rook at d1 have got to count for something? Fine, it may not lead to an immediate mate. But it does make things diffi-cult for Black. That's what I think. I don't understand the logic of the various chess softwares, nor do I have access to any of them. And as I've said repea-tedly, I have little to no experience. So, compared to you and other users, by defini-tion, I'm operating from a disad-vantage. But I am trying to employ all of what I have and have access to as much, as well, and as efficiently and effectively as it is humanly possi-ble for me to do so.

Thank you, <al wazir>, <TTLump>, <YouRang>, and every-one else here who's helped me. I could use all the help I can get, especially considering the limitations of my situation and my resources, and thus my ability to understand, let alone play, the game better than I do now. Take very good care all and have yourselves a most joyous day, every day. Cheers mates!

Feb-03-06  Marco65: <Cogano> <Robbing the Black King of the opportunity to castle and posting the rook at d1 have got to count for something> Actually this is not the thought of an inexperienced player as you define yourself! I don't have FIDE Elo but I can judge my strength is around 1900, and therefore I shouldn't even try to judge such a complex position. You might be right. My thoughts are:

1. Giving away a piece is normally a no-return decision. Either you win in the next 10 moves or you resign in view of a hopeless endgame

2. Computers are very good at defence, therefore if they discard Bf7+ it means they do see a good defence for Black that holds the position for at least the next 6 or 7 moves. If this is not enough let an engine think a whole night on that position and you'll probably get the truth!

3. Whatever is the truth, I agree the position after Bf7+ is very difficult for human beings to play with Black OTB. It is possible that Manca thought of Bf7+ rather than Nf7 when he made the sac. I'll ask him if I ever meet him!

Feb-03-06  Cogano: Hello <Marco65> and I sincerely hope this finds you well. First, thank you most kindly for your prompt reply. You are evidently more famaliar with computers, at least with res -pect to chess, chess engines & softwares etc. than I am. So I can't comment on most of what you said, as I know not the first thing about computers' strengths & weaknesses in playing chess, nor have I ever had the opportunity to find out. Furthermore, as I've already pointed out, if not on this page, then another one, I have no access to such engines, softwares (nor would I trust the computer I use with them, as it's relatively old & problems-ridden). And, I have never, nor am I likely to ever, take a computer's perspective into con-sideration. After all, my aim is to play chess with fellow human beings. So I have no interest in playing a computer. But, I will at least consider a line it offers, in case it might indeed prove useful and give me an OTB advantage in games with other people! Thank you for all your input & insight. They are most gratefully appreciated. Take very good care & have yourself a most joyous day, every day. Cheers mate!
Feb-03-06
Premium Chessgames Member
  al wazir: <cogano>: The Sicilian defense (1. e4 c5, usually followed by 2. Nf3 and 3. d4) has many lines, each with its characteristic pawn configuration. The most popular currently are the Najdorf, in which black plays a6, d6, and e5, and the Scheveningen, with a6, d6, and e6. In both of these black develops his dark ♗ on e7. Formerly the dragon variation (d6 and g6 followed by Bg7) was played more often. In all lines white tries to attack by pushing his king-side pawns (e.g., f4 and g4); black often tries for a queen-side attack with a6 and b5-4, especially if white castles on the queen side.

Speaking for myself, I wish you'd leave off the cheery good wishes. The longer kibitzers make their messages, the fewer I can see on my screen at one time.

Feb-03-06  Cogano: Hi again <al wazir>. Thanks much for the explanation. It's greatly appreciated. This obviously requires more analysis and study of openings etc. As for good wishes etc., I'll cut it out where you're concerned from now on. Sorry about that! :)
Feb-06-06
Premium Chessgames Member
  patzer2: White initiates a quick three-move-mate with the pseudo-sacrifice 20. Qc7+!
Feb-06-06
Premium Chessgames Member
  Jim Bartle: I count six sacrifices (offered or accepted) in twenty moves.
Feb-12-06
Premium Chessgames Member
  patzer2: According to Fritz 8, Black played well until the blunder 19...Qg4?? Instead, with careful defense he can survive with the advantage after 19...cxd4!

Earlier, Black should be able to easily simplify to a won game after the double attacking defensive move 10...Qg4!

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