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Oldrich Duras vs Erich Cohn
Ostend-B (1907), Ostend BEL, rd 29, Jun-24
Russian Game: Modern Attack (C43)  ·  1-0


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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Jun-29-04  iron maiden: If 40...Kd5 then 41. c4+. Moral: connect your rooks.
Premium Chessgames Member
  kevin86: Black has the bad choice of which rook to surrender-as well as the tactic that loses it.

40...♔d5 41 c4+ or 40...♔e4 41 ♕f5+
discovered attack or fork.

Jun-29-04  poktirity: I hate when people do this to you.
Jun-29-04  erikcu: Question; at what move is it still anyone's game?
Jun-29-04  Eatman: At first I was looking for a mate in middle of board, but then realized winning a rook will do..
Jun-29-04  ConspTheory06: Gypsy be careful you are a little bold in that statement a queen is not always better than two rooks.
Jun-29-04  Papablanca: That's not what gypsy means, I think. He means just in this position.

BTW, I liked your rook Gypsy, why did you ive it up?

Jun-29-04  peterk007: <erikcu> After move 30, when Q vs. R+R is on the board, I think black is lost. The 2 R are disconnected and the black king is out in the open. The white Q is sweeping the board and black is just not fast enough. When the black K retreats to the corner behind its pawns, the white e pawn is very strong.
Jun-29-04  ToTheDeath: This only took me about 6 seconds to find. Once you realize that the the black king is in the middle of the board and the rooks are loose, it's just a matter of finding the right forcing sequence.

Two rooks are usually better then a queen IF they can coordinate together against targets. But on an open board the Queen will usually dominate. Likewise if the enemy king is too exposed or if he has too many weak pawns.

Jun-29-04  Papablanca: FerociousBeast would have found it in 0.06 seconds.

Ferocious, WHERE ARE YOU!! People start boasting on the small amount of time they need for the puzzle, which is YOUR thing and nobody can do it with as much zeal as you can!

Premium Chessgames Member
  patzer2: Modern theory holds that the two rooks are in general worth slightly more than a Queen, with many exceptions to the rule. However, Duras seems to accurately calculate that with a single pawn advantage he has the initiative and the advantage in exchanging down to this particular Queen versus two rooks middlegame.
Jun-29-04  Everett: Evans had an article in chesslife a while back saying that more often than not a Q overcomes two R, using many Fischer games as examples.

Often, when the material switch from regular to Q:2R happens, the rooks aren't coordinated yet. Thus the Q often has a chance to take advantage of its flexibility

Premium Chessgames Member
  Gypsy: < BTW, I liked your rook Gypsy, why did you ive it up? > Thanks for the feedback <Papablanca>, I intend to change it back. I just was indoctrinating a 3-year old about chess; clicking a letting thing happen was a great success.
Jun-29-04  Papablanca: To <Gypsy>: In fact, I am teaching my 3 year old son chess! Untill now, we only play with kings and pawns and to avoid confusion we let the paws capture the way they move.
Jun-29-04  myratingstinks: Can someone please explain the logic in 17 ... axb5 !?!?!?!? queen for rook? what is that all about?
Jun-29-04  Lawrence: <myratingstinks>, Queen for 2 Rooks, isn't it? Junior 8 thinks it's just dandy.
Premium Chessgames Member
  kevin86: The rooks,if co-ordinated,usually have the edge of about a pawn over the queen. If not,however,they are in constant danger of double and even triple attacks.

In this position,white is about a pawn ahead--but of course,the tactical thrust by white leads to a quick knockout.

Premium Chessgames Member
  patzer2: <myratingstinks> Generally, the two rooks are worth more than the Queen. So, it's not a bad exchange (Queen for two Rooks). In this specific case 17...axb5 is certainly no worse than the alternative 17...Qc1 18. Rd5 (18. Rb1 is also good) with White enjoying the initiative, a big space advantage and an extra pawn.

I haven't run it through a computer, but I wouldn't be surprised if Junior 8 didn't rate the position at least equal after 17...axb5!? As a personal preference, I slightly prefer White's position (because of the extra pawn), but wouldn't rate it much above equal.

Premium Chessgames Member
  patzer2: The following site has some discussion of the value of the pieces:

It seems consistent with most computer valuations with the Queen worth 9.75 pawns and the two rooks worth 5.00 pawns each, or 10.00 pawns or more when properly coordinated.

Of course GM Evans is probably correct that in most situations where strong Masters choose to exchange their two Rooks for their opponents Queen that they have found a position where the Queen has good chances of gaining an advantage over the two Rooks (e.g. as in having an extra pawn in this game).

Jun-29-04  pawn2E4: i looked at this for a couple of minutes,and then got it right!..the only problem is that i didn't see the rest of it...and i really laughed when i was wonderin what if black went k-e4? then i looked real close,and just laughed lol.......smmfh,too
Premium Chessgames Member
  Gypsy: < Papablanca: To <Gypsy>: In fact, I am teaching my 3 year old son chess!> Wonderful, good luck!! :-))
Jun-29-04  Chesspatch: What if 22 ... Ra8, attacking the a1 pawn? How is white going to refute that?
Premium Chessgames Member
  Gypsy: < Chesspatch: What if 22 ... Ra8, attacking the a1 pawn? How is white going to refute that? > IMKO (in-my-kibitz-opinion), Duras would continue pretty much the same as he did in the game: He would push his f and e pawns, create a passed pawn on e6 and open up Black's king. Black would loose too much time picking up the a2 pawn--4 moves to pick it up and then connect the rooks. (Incidentally, the two rooks and king on the same diagonal could be slipery; Black needs to thread gingerly.) Duras would then combine tactical pawn-promotion motives with a mating attack. He was extremely good at both.
Premium Chessgames Member
  Chessical: <Gypsy> I believe that Chesspatch's <22...Ra8> is a better move than Cohn's choice of doubling on the d file.

Black needs to be aware that his K-side is weak, and that he can be mated after a f6 push with Qg5.

If: <23.f4> Rxa2 24.f5 Ra4 (24...Bc5? 25.Bxc5 Rxc5 26.f6 g6 27.e6 wins) 25.e6 f6 26.g4 and the game is still in the balance.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Gypsy: Good point <Chessical>. I suspect that Black would have to bring his a4 rook home eventually; it may be too out of play on a4 eventually as the main theater (so to speak) is bound to be the NE quadrangle of the board. It sure would have been fun/instructive if <Chesspatch> line happened in the game.
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