< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 4 OF 4 ·
|Jan-29-08|| ||wals: In real life, how much time would a tournamentplayer spend doing abstract assessments to sort out candidate moves etc.?|
|Jan-29-08|| ||ruzon: I appreciate <jovack>'s comments about 25...Bh4 because I did not even consider it. I appreciate the arguments that others have made about the relative value of noticing this move. And I hope the next such discussion has more civility to it.|
|Jan-29-08|| ||MaxxLange: <zenpharoas> It seems like some posters were debating if it is enough to see that 25...Bh4 is harmless to White, or if the solver must also determine that 25...Bh4 gets crushed. It may come to the same thing in this case, since seeing that Black has nothing after White's simple 26. Qxh4, winning a piece and retaining an attack, is probably how most people would determine that it is not a refutation to 25. Bxh6|
|Jan-29-08|| ||jovack: <Minty>
err, black forfeit, therefore, if he did choose to play it out, Bh4 would have been his next move. No one ever said, white to play and mate, they just presented us with a puzzle, and I made the best, and most realistic continuation with it (as did a few others)
personally, i almost immediately saw Bxh6 as a 'potential' move, then after analyzing it, I saw it was not tactically failing and black is in real trouble, then I looked for mate, saw a queen sacrifice (as one option) but after I saw Bh4, I started to re-evaluate and saw that white would come out in a dominant position anyway, hence black resigning.
in a real game, this analysis will typically come quickly especially with adrenaline pumping (dont ask). Seeing Bh4 would definitely not take you 5 minutes of thought, especially since black is practically forced to make the trades due to discovered attacks on his king eliminating other possible lines.
Even if you missed Bh4, and got surprised after he played it, it would be relatively easy to evaluate how to continue a winning attack.
<zenpharaohs> exactly! :)
|Jan-29-08|| ||wals: Mantra: Detachment, calm reflection, instinctive choice.
I observe white is to play and the black King is huddled up on h8.
if..25.Bg5 x h6..Ng8 x h6
26.Rh3 x h6+..Kg8 27.Qg4+
A correct move, thank you mantra.
|Jan-29-08|| ||jovack: < <Completely Average Joe> The above was in response to <UdayanOwen>, but I have to butt in. Frankly, I find more enlightenment in any three randomly selected posts from <UdayanOwen> than in the sum total of all the productions from <jovack>. >|
More whining... I'll just stop feeding the flames since majority of people would like to analyze less moves rather than more.
|Jan-29-08|| ||jovack: Last thing for this puzzle, I never even said that those checkmates were wrong solutions.. because in all probability, what if black chooses to play another move? Then all of these fine checkmate lines would certainly come in handy. I was simply giving the move that would save black from immediate death, even though he has no hope of redeeming the game.|
|Jan-29-08|| ||MaxxLange: I have found that people who are in the habit of characterizing criticism as "whining" are almost always a waste of time.|
|Jan-29-08|| ||wals: Thank uou jovack so what would be the time spent in strictly tournament play|
|Jan-29-08|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: <jovack: < <Completely Average Joe> The above was in response to <UdayanOwen>, but I have to butt in. Frankly, I find more enlightenment in any three randomly selected posts from <UdayanOwen> than in the sum total of all the productions from <jovack>. > More whining... I'll just stop feeding the flames since majority of people would like to analyze less moves rather than more>|
I see, in absence of arguments, you resort to word games on my username. Grow up.
Your very first post, <Solution for this puzzle: Win a minor piece, NOT mate.> indicates that you did not analyze very deep, or you'd see more than one minor piece.
MAJ, having successfully resisted a temptation to change the first two letters in 'vack'.
|Jan-29-08|| ||xrt999: <jovack> when I called this game up in Chessmaster database, and swap Mr Torre out and plug in CM, FWIW CM chooses 25...Bh4 almost immediately, as you seem to say, prolonging the inevitable. I am a member of this camp, since within the void of the inevitable is time, and within time, the number of decisions increase as a function of time, and so too the chance of human error of calculation, or miscalculation.|
If you choose to play over resign, the goal in a losing position would be to increase the number of moves interposed in your opponents field, increasing the chances of miscalculation.
|Jan-29-08|| ||einuj: Sorry guys, I can't resist the temptation... here's what I think :
1. Chessgames.com is showing the beauty of the queen sac; definitely knows all the useless answer after bxh3 but just won't give those away for kibitzers.
2. Chessgames.com didn't say mate-in-3, just like all the previous ones wherein the objective is just to find the move that will have a clear win; and sometimes even get a draw in an inferior position.
3. it's pointless to point out at a certain extent other defenses that will obviously also lead to losing the game - otherwise for every puzzle here in the next days we can just pointlessly throw every pieces on the way just to delay the inevitable. We definitely don’t want to see that kind of trend to start here.|
|Jan-29-08|| ||littlefermat: Bleh, I can't believe I missed this. Ugh, I hate when I mis read the position...|
|Jan-29-08|| ||johnlspouge: <zenpharaohs: There seems to be a difficulty here about whether Bh4 must be considered in the problem. There is no question that it must.>|
You will get no argument from me. The issue is whether or not it needs to be considered explicitly, because it is the best line for Black. My usual formula is "[or drops a P]" (which is exactly what 25...Bh4 does), and I find the formula sufficient in place of many best losing lines. I omitted it today out of haste. I apologize: it's only Tuesday, after all, and I was lulled into a false sense of security.
I do, however, look forward with great anticipation to your list of all the best losing lines this Sunday.
|Jan-29-08|| ||UdayanOwen: Okay, this has gotten way out of hand, and it seems I was the first to subtly incite jovack's feelings.|
<jovack> I am sorry for the tone when I said that "this is the way GM's think about chess". I guess it was a bit condescending.
I was a bit annoyed because I felt you were unnecessarily (although subtly) disparaging to chessgames.com and to other people who may not have considered 25...Bh4. I think that others may have picked up this tone in your original post, which I think was also a bit condescending.
I think your attitude got worse after my post (probably because you were upset with my GM comment), and then other people started to express their feelings about your attitude, and everybody seemed to get caught in a negative spiral where all parties made each other more upset and the situation just got out of control.
We are all entitled to express our arguments and criticize one another's arguments.
Let's try to get over all this aggro in the process though....
|Jan-29-08|| ||UdayanOwen: <newton296: I see post saying they got this one quick . for example!|
< UdayanOwen: 25.Bxh6 exf5 (otherwise white has made a winning breakthrough) 26.Bg7++ Kg7 27.Rh7# Cute>
alot more to it then this Uday!!
If you didn't see all black defenses and white's replies you didn't get it.>
Newton, to be accurate, I didn't claim to have "got this one quick", if you check my post. Also, perhaps you have erroneously assumed that this line is all I considered, just because I didn't post other lines. I posted the line I posted because it is the 'point' of the move 25.Bxh6, not because I considered 25...exf4 the only or best move. All other moves apart from 25...exf4 change nothing about black being a pawn down with a strategically lost position to boot (hence my brackets "otherwise white has made a winning breakthrough").
|Jan-29-08|| ||UdayanOwen: Here is some further reasoning in defence of the argument that 25...Bh4 doesn't need to be considered:|
When you consider 25.Bxh6, in the immediate sense this gains a pawn and furthers the plan to attack the king by opening him up completely. Hence, the only thing that would justify the move NOT being played is if black can mate, or win material to redress the material balance and compensate for white's huge strategical gain, without getting checkmated in the process.
So the only candidates for black that strictly HAVE to be considered are the one's that mate or attempt to win material. I don't see how 25...Bh4 fits the bill here. Hence I don't think it needs to be considered by white.
I in no way mean to imply that 25...Bh4 is not the best move. I am just saying that if you have made material and strategical gains, and furthered your plans, then all you have to do is verify that there is no tactical refutation, (rather than find the best defence, since if there is no tactical refutation then you will have a big advantage against any defence).
|Jan-29-08|| ||UdayanOwen: <jovack> A further clarification - I did read your initial post. None of us believe that you didn't see the mate after 25...exf4. Furthermore, I know you were aware that 25...Bh4 still lost for black. I also agreed that 25...Bh4 was the best move.|
I just thought it was wrong to criticize chessgames.com as though they didn't consider 25...Bh4, and I put my argument forward for that.
I also thought it was wrong to chastise people who may not have considered 25...Bh4, and I put my argument forward for that too.
Everything I wrote was intended to justify these points, not to imply that you didn't see the mate after 25...exf4, or that white clearly wins after 25...Bh4.
|Jan-29-08|| ||OBIT: I'm inclined to side with those who think the 25...Bh4 defense (if you can call it a "defense") does not have to be considered, since it obviously loses. This isn't defense so much as trying to drag out the game as long as possible and hoping your opponent has a heart attack. If I were in Black's position, I'd take the queen and let my opponent have his flashy finish. Anyway, who knows, maybe he'll play Bxf8?? |
Just for grins, though, I looked at the position after 25...Bh4 to see what I think I'd play. I came up with 26. Bg5!, which no one here has mentioned yet. (Evidently, the majority like 26. Qd2, but my guess is they are just following the recommendation from some computer.) After 26. Bg5, White threatens Qxh4, so now 26...exf4 is forced. White then continues 27. Rxh4+ Nh6 28. Rxh6+ Kg7 29. Rh7+ Kg8 30. Bxd8. So, now White is up two pieces, has the queens off the board, and threatens Be7 to trap a rook. I wonder how long the bitter enders will play THIS one out.
|Jan-29-08|| ||UdayanOwen: <OBIT: I'm inclined to side with those who think the 25...Bh4 defense (if you can call it a "defense") does not have to be considered, since it obviously loses.>|
I agree with you that 25...Bh4 obviously loses. However, I don't think that this is the right way to argue that 25...Bh4 doesn't need to be considered, since this argument presupposes that 25...Bh4 is considered and judged to be 'obviously losing'.
My argument is based on the fact that the only responses that white needs to consider are ones that try to get compensation for white's strategical and material advantage. 25...Bh4 doesn't come into consideration for this end.
26.Bg5 was mentioned by an earlier kibitzer (From memory I think it may have been Patzer2).
|Jan-29-08|| ||OBIT: <UOwen>Yes, but I don't subscribe to the idea that the best move is the one that drags out the game the longest. Instead, give yourself the best chance to win. If you play 25...Bh4, you are going to need a monumental swindle to avoid the loss. What are the odds of that, 1% at best? I'd say you have better odds by taking the queen - judging by a very unscientific polls of kibitzers here who admit they'd have blundered with Bxf8+, you'll win more than 1 out of 100. :)|
|Jan-29-08|| ||johnlspouge: <OBIT: "I don't subscribe to the idea that the best move is the one that drags out the game the longest. Instead, give yourself the best chance to win. If you play 25...Bh4, you are going to need a monumental swindle to avoid the loss. What are the odds of that, 1% at best? I'd say you have better odds by taking the queen - judging by a very unscientific polls of kibitzers here who admit they'd have blundered with Bxf8+, you'll win more than 1 out of 100. :)">|
This observation certainly undermines the notion that 25...Bh4 has some special status when analyzing losing moves.
- but next time, don't sully our discussion with facts, please! LOL.
|Jan-29-08|| ||mrbiggs: How is there so much discussion about this?
chessgames pointed out a difficult-to-see line and said that a truly correct solution would have analyzed that line. Not that it's the best line, not that it's the only line, but that it should have been analyzed to justify the bishop sac.
I personally didn't see the queen en prise (although I did actually see the Rg7 mate in some other lines, so I figure I half got it), so I appreciate that they mentioned it. I did, by the way, see the Bh4 line and quickly saw that white wins easily. However, since I missed one of the important lines, i did not get the solution.
|Jan-30-08|| ||stukkenjager: Nice puzzle. Do you need to look at 25..Lh4? Not realy, the simple <26.Qe3> is crushing (there might even be a forced mate)|
|Sep-21-09|| ||WhiteRook48: 25...exf4 26 Bxf8+ and 27 g3...|
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