< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|Mar-15-08|| ||goodevans: <MarkThornton: Is 16...b5 also good? My idea is 17. cxb5 d5 18. exd5 Re8+ ...> I thought 16...b5 17 cxb5 d5 18 exd5 Qxd3.|
|Mar-15-08|| ||Eyal: <wouldpusher: Rybka hints at [17.]Qc2.> This also seems quite hopeless, e.g. after the forcing 17...fxe4 18.dxe4 d3! 19.Qxd3 Qf6 with a double threat on a1 and f2.|
Interesting to note how helpless White is in the final position after 19...Be6, even though he's "only" a pawn down at that stage - resignation isn't too early here. He can't defend c4 or do anything real against moves such as b5 and Qe4 which are coming from Black, and can't get his king to safety in either wing (20.0-0 would lose immediately to 20...Bxg4!)
|Mar-15-08|| ||Eyal: Btw, while I certainly don't call for the firing of the person who chooses the puzzle of the day, I do find the choice of this puzzle a bit dubious for a Saturday... its level of difficulty appears to be significantly below the norm, and it's actually easier than yesterday's puzzle.|
|Mar-15-08|| ||TrueBlue: easier than yesterday in my opinion. Was able to see it, yesterday was impossible for me, didn't even consider the played move.|
|Mar-15-08|| ||zoat22: <zooter> true I feel it w*ould not constitute a puzzle, but then, in my opinion, none of chessgames.com's puzzles are real puzzles... just my feeling... As this is the first "very difficult" that I have done, I was simply surprised at the level of it, although I didn't feel it was a real combination.|
|Mar-15-08|| ||johnlspouge: Saturday (Very Difficult): Black to play and win
Material: even, with Bs of opposite color. The position has some symmetric character. There is, however, a hint of overextension in the aggressive position of the White Ps, particularly on the K-side. The White Ke1 has not castled, so if lines open, Ke1 might yet be stranded in the center. If so, Qa4 would then be slow to defend Ke1. The Pd5 forms a powerful wedge into the White position, taking key dark squares away from both K and B.
Candidates (16…): f5
17…fxg4 18.hxg4 Bxg4 or 17…fxe4 18.dxe4 Qxe4+,
in both variations winning a P, opening the K-file, and stranding Ke1 in the center.
Because White cannot refuse the P sacrifice, there are two possible captures.
(1) 18.exf5 Bxf5 19.gxf5 [else, Bxd6 wins a P and opens White up completely]
(2) 18.gxf5 Bxf5 (threatening 19…Bxe4 20…Qxe4+, forking Ke1 and Rh1)
There are several responses to the threat.
(2.A) 19.exf5, transposing back into variation (1).
(2.B) 19.Qc2 Rae8 (threatening 20.Rxe4+ and 20.Bxe4),
so White drops at least a P, again with an open Ke1.
(2.C) 19.Rf1 Bxh6,
picking up more material in the middle of a winning attack.
Thus, variations (1) and (2.A) converge on a world of pain for White.
19…Qxf5 (threatening 20…Qxf2+, 20…Qxd3+, 20…Rae8+, and 20…Qf3)
20.Qc2, defending only against the primary threats 20…Qxf2+ and 20…Qxd3+.
20…Rae8+ 21.Be3 dxe3,
and White is a P down and about to lose to a raging mating attack. Time to peek. I love it! At least, nobody can accuse me of peeking before I write down <my> solution ;>) Chiburdanidze just found an interesting way to die. Time to check the kibitzing.
|Mar-15-08|| ||johnlspouge: <<An Englishman> wrote: "What would Spielmann do?">|
It’s wonderful: we both learned enough to solve today’s puzzle - from a person who died 66 years ago…
|Mar-15-08|| ||johnlspouge: Toga II 1.3.1 analysis on the best way to die after 16...f5 gives|
[ply 15/57, time 02:13, value (to White) -1.92]
17.Qc2 fxe4 18.dxe4 Qf6 19.0-0 d3 20.Qb3 Qf3 21.c5+ Kh8 22.Kh2 Qxe4 23.Bb2 Be6 24.Qc3 Rf6 25.Rae1 Qf4+ 26.Kg1 Qf3 27.cxd6
After the bloodshed at f5 (16...f5 17.exf5 Bxf5 18.gxf5), Toga gives
[ply 15/62, time 02:45, value (to White) -3.42]
18...Rxf5 19.Bf4 Re8+ 20.Kd2 Rxf4 21.Raf1 Rf3 22.Qb3 a5 23.c5+ Kh8 24.cxd6 Qxd6 25.bxa5 Qa6 26.Qa3 Re5 27.Kc1 Rxa5 28.Qb4 Qc6+ 29.Kb1
After 16...f5 17.exf5 Bxf5 18.gxf5 Qxf5, Toga gives
[ply 15/43, time 00:35, value (to White) -1.19]
19.Qc2 Rae8+ 20.Kf1 Qf3 21.Rh2 Qg3 22.Rh1 Re3 23.Bb2 Rxd3 24.Re1 c5 25.Re2 Qf3 26.Rh2 cxb4 27.Rg2 Qxh3
After 16...f5 17.exf5 Bxf5 18.gxf5 Qg2, Toga gives
[ply 15/52, time 01:15, value (to White) -3.11]
19.Bb2 Qxh1+ 20.Kd2 Qxh3 21.Bxd4 Qxf5 22.Rg1 g6 23.Rg3 Rfe8 24.Be3 Qf6 25.Qb3 a5 26.b5 Kh8 27.Qc3 Re5 28.Kc2
<dzechiel>'s continuation 18...Qg2 is therefore much better than my 18...Bxf5, but not quite as good as (the rather surprising) 18...Rxf5.
|Mar-15-08|| ||zb2cr: Bah. 2 days in a row I have missed. Need to get more sleep, or channel my inner Spielmann, or something...|
|Mar-15-08|| ||Samagonka: There you go, folks..haven't I complained time and again about the "insanity" of some of these puzzles, from Wednesday downwards???|
Good to know I'm not the only one who feels like a failure after spending minutes of trying to find a reasonable solution just to be shocked by an extra-ordinarily abstract, sub-scientific, mathematic,computer-calculus result!!!
PS.: there are some who claim to have seen every move THOUGH!
|Mar-15-08|| ||012: Friday puzzle <33. ?> Mar-14-08 Short vs Psakhis, 1985|
|Mar-15-08|| ||UdayanOwen: Presumably black plays 16...Bxg4 17.hxg4 Qxg4, with the plan to follow up with f5 opening lines for the rooks. |
The white queen is out of play, white is underdeveloped, and it won't be easy to organise queenside castling. The king might instead be able to run to the queenside. But even if he succeeds in castling or runs, black can lever open the queenside with b7-b5. So really the king is permanently open. After black plays f5, if white plays exf5, then the d3 pawn will be a weakling. If white doesn't play exf5, then black can play fxe4, leaving white with a weak pawn on e4, and black a passed pawn on d4. Add to this the fact that f2 is weak, and the chances of black getting a third pawn for his piece are pretty good. Finally, black has passed pawns on the kingside and may in some circumstances start running the h-pawn down the board.
I'll go with the 'ideas based' solution today, rather than the 'concrete analysis based' solution, cos I gotta sleep for a change.
In any case I reckon you could just about play this line cold turkey with no analysis, based on strategical considerations..... It seems to me black has more than enough compensation for his piece even if you don't analyse more than 2 moves deep.
|Mar-15-08|| ||UdayanOwen: Mmm, f5 has even more crush potential than my line without the risk....|
I wonder how my plan would turn out with best play???
Gee, what a terrible position for white after 16...f5.
|Mar-15-08|| ||UdayanOwen: I mean, can we get really scathing? This play by white is just absurd.... queen out of play, no other development, king in the middle, and thrusting all the pawns forward to create the weakest pawn front I've just about ever seen in master play (are these guys masters, I'm assuming so???)|
That is bizzare.
|Mar-15-08|| ||kevin86: This is a good nuts and bolts puzzle. Black is able to open up the white position for an early kill-|
Maybe the fact that it wasn't a landmark puzzle and only a pragmatic puzzle is what makes it difficult.
<david> just wait around a while-more exciting days are ahead.
|Mar-15-08|| ||Jimfromprovidence: I wonder what would have happened if white had played Bb2 on the 16th rather than 17th move? |
click for larger view
The position probably loses a pawn but enables white to regroup. He activates his queenside rook and also has the flexibility to castle queenside.
|Mar-15-08|| ||johnlspouge: <<UdayanOwen> wrote: Presumably black plays 16...Bxg4 17.hxg4 Qxg4, with the plan to follow up with f5 opening lines for the rooks. [snip] I wonder how my plan would turn out with best play???>|
Toga II 1.3.1 gives
[ply 15/38, time 00:15, value +1.05]
18.Qd1 Qxd1+ 19.Kxd1 f5 20.f3 b5 21.cxb5 axb5 22.Ke2 Rf7 23.Bb2 c5 24.a3 fxe4 25.fxe4 Raf8 26.Rh2 Rf3 27.Rc1 Re3+ 28.Kd2
The line is losing with best play, <UdayanOwen>. I will send the naysayers back to this game if any questions about your honesty ever arise again (and I sincerely hope they will not).
My chessforum has instructions on downloading the freeware required to answer precisely your question.
|Mar-15-08|| ||MaczynskiPratten: <UdayanOwen: (are these guys masters, I'm assuming so???)> Actually White was World Champion when this game was played - Women's World Champion that is (but also a fully qualified GM). A bad day at the office .. it looks OK at move 9 but then goes downhill steadily, though no obvious mistakes. The tactics just work in Black's favour. Maybe she thought the position after 16 g4 would be survivable with only Q, R's and one minor piece pair on, but it doesn't work that way (opposite coloured B's are drawish in endgame but can be lethal in middlegame).|
|Mar-15-08|| ||wals: Noting think:- Bishops were involved in the last two, Third time lucky?, let's see.|
Forward to TPOTD
First glance,the white King is apparently not castled.
Bishop to f5 invites (1) gxf5 with Qg2 in response.
(2) exf5 with Qe6+ in response.
Possible is Qe6, 0.0, Bd7 Qd1, Qg6
or b2-b4, cxb4, Bb7, Qc2,
16. ...Bxg4 17.hxg4 ...Qxg4 18.Rf1 ...Bd7 I hope
Blast it. Must learn to observe the obvious. Like my old mate Fritz 11.
Depth 38 Time 2min 15
Maia Chiburdanidze - Eugenio Torre, It (cat.13) Biel (Switzerland) 1988
Analysis by Fritz 11:
1. (-2.32): 16...f7-f5 17.Qa4-c2 f5xe4 18.d3xe4 Rf8-f3 19.Qc2-e2 Qg6-f7 20.c4-c5 d4-d3 21.Qe2-d1 d6xc5 22.b4xc5 Rf3xf2 23.Qd1xd3 Bc8-e6 24.c5-c6 b7xc6 25.Rh1-f1 Ra8-f8 26.Rf1xf2
2. (-0.71): 16...Qg6-f6 17.Ke1-e2 Bc8-e6 18.Bc1-d2 c7-c6 19.f2-f4 b7-b5 20.c4xb5 a6xb5 21.Qa4-c2 Be6-d7 22.Ke2-f3 Qf6-e7 23.f4-f5 c6-c5
|Mar-15-08|| ||zanshin: <MaczynskiPratten: <UdayanOwen: (are these guys masters, I'm assuming so???)> >|
And Black is Eugene Torre, GM from the Philippines (my homeland) and widely acclaimed to be Asia's first Grandmaster.
|Mar-15-08|| ||whiteshark: I found <16...f5> rather quickly (after the usual random trials ♕x, x♕ and ♗x didn't work). Next thought: Open lines for the ♖♖ at any (♗) cost. Bingo!|
|Mar-15-08|| ||jdc2: Pretty interesting. Black wins a pawn, but there are plenty of tactical shots that White could miss without precise play. Here are some variations from
Var. 1: 2.0-0 fxe4 3.dxe4 Bxg4 4.hxg4 Qxg4+ 5.Kh2 Rf3
6.Qb3 d3 7.c5+ Kh8 8.Qxd3 Rxd3 9.Be3;
Var. 2: 2.gxf5 Qg2 3.Rf1 Bxf5 4.Bb2 (4.exf5 Rae8+ 5.Kd2 Qxf1)
Var. 3: 2.exf5 Bxf5 3.gxf5 Qg2 4.Bb2 Qxh1+
Var. 4: 2.Qc2 fxe4 3.dxe4 d3 4.Qxd3 [4.Qc3 Qxe4+]
Qf6 5.Rb1 Qxf2+ 6.Kd1 Qxa2 7.Rb2 Qa4+
|Mar-15-08|| ||thefableddavid: what im trying to say is how could someone predict the poor moves that white played. I'm very amateur, with a rating of 1400 in yahoo chess, but had i moved the black pawn to f5, I would not have expected such a poor response from white. Therefore this does not constitute a puzzle. Although most of the other puzzles are great and I get them sometimes.|
|Mar-15-08|| ||johnlspouge: <<thefableddavid> wrote: what im trying to say is how could someone predict the poor moves that white played. [snip] I would not have expected such a poor response from white. Therefore this does not constitute a puzzle. [snip]>|
Here is my take, <thefableddavid>. I regard the puzzle position as a starting point for my analysis. The positions are often more interesting and critical than the average position, i.e., the path to a good result is narrower than usual. As the FAQ on puzzles points out, the actual game line might have very little to do with the "best" solution, so personally, I like appealing to a computer to decide how good a solution is. The puzzles are therefore mental exercises, to improve my understanding of chess. Many puzzles lack closed, cut-and-dried, "right and wrong" answers. At the end of the kibitzing, however, I arrive at a better understanding of the puzzle by seeing the processes by which other people arrive at their solutions (or errors).
Many minds are better than one...
|Mar-21-08|| ||gawain: I'm sure nobody is still looking on at this point, but here are my two cents. f5 is a nice positional sacrifice, opening lines in an irresistible way. Seeing that this move wins is finding the solution to a puzzle in a perfectly good sense--even if the key move merely leads to a position that has no single winning line but is overwhelmingly advantageous|
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