< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
|Mar-30-08|| ||TrueBlue: <johnlspouge> Here is what black gets for Qxa2|
19. d7+ Kxd7 20.
Rd1+ Bd6 21. Rxd6+ Kxd6 22. Qc5+ Kd7 23. Qc7+ Ke8 24. Qc6+ Ke7 25. Qb7+ Kf6
26. Bd4+ e5 27. fxe5+ Kf5 28. Bg4+ Kxg4 29. Qe4+ Kg5 30. Be3+ Kh5 31. g4+
Kh4 32. Bf2+ Kh3 33. Qf3+ Kxh2 34. Qg3+ Kh1 35. Qg1#
so I don't see how it was a good move ...
|Mar-30-08|| ||johnlspouge: <<znprdx> wrote: Well 17.d7+ follows basic Chess principles and should be enough to net the full point.>|
Your solution is a Schrodinger's cat, half dead and half alive.
Toga II 1.3.1 evaluates 17.d7+ as a draw.
[ply 15/48, time 05:41, value +0.09]
17.d7+ Qxd7 18.Bd3 Bd6 19.f5 Qc6 20.Bd4 0-0-0 21.fxe6 fxe6 22.Rhf1 Rd7 23.g3 Bxa2 24.Be4 Bd5 25.Bxd5 exd5 26.Kb1 Kb7
<<>My only problem is that this is pretty straight forward - where is the "insane" aspect?>
Agreed. Today's puzzle followed its logic more consistently than many.
|Mar-30-08|| ||xrt999: I played 17.d7+ Kxd7 18.Rxd5+ Qxd5 but cant really see how to continue the attack despite my engine telling me that I am +4.95 at 9 plies.|
|Mar-30-08|| ||johnlspouge: <<TrueBlue> wrote: <johnlspouge> Here is what black gets for Qxa2>|
Hi, <TrueBlue>. My original analysis gave the first couple of moves you give, essentially demonstrating that 18...Qxa2 loses, just like every move after 17.Rxd5. What I was trying to say, perhaps unsuccessfully, was that psychologically, 18...Qxa2 was the most difficult move for me to analyze, because it looked dangerous, with some "cheapo potential". On those grounds, it is not really open to more criticism than the alternatives.
|Mar-30-08|| ||znprdx: <johnlspouge:> I didn't choose the immediate d7+ as the solution, just observed that a solid (human) player would have little trouble making things tough for Black. |
In fact I found 18.e2 (and was pleased to discover that it was the correct move) which sets up the zugswang ... <Nova485:> certainly qualifying as a challenge, albeit the fireworks are in the notes.
<MostlyAverageJoe:> and Nunn :) After ...Bxd6 19.Rd1 keeps up the pressure forcing Qf6. Now 20.Bf3
|Mar-30-08|| ||johnlspouge: <<znprdx> wrote: <johnlspouge:> I didn't choose the immediate d7+ as the solution, just observed that a solid (human) player would have little trouble making things tough for Black.>|
Hi, <znprdx>. Your post was beautifully succinct in displaying the virtues of 17.Rxd5. Thanks for the clarification.
|Mar-30-08|| ||012: Saturday puzzle <27. ...?> Mar-29-08 Schmid vs Rossolimo, 1949|
|Mar-30-08|| ||Jimfromprovidence: I, like <RV>, tried 18...Qxd6 19 Rd1 Qb8?!, below. |
click for larger view
It's a complicated continuation thereafter, but still clearly winning for white.
|Mar-30-08|| ||bharatiy: I don't know how Jphn Nunn criticizes 18 Bxd6 but its not a clear advantage after Bxd6. Bxd6. 19 Qxa2 doesn't loose immediately.
19---Rxd6 20. Qa1 Kd2 21. O-O and black is not out of the game completely|
|Mar-30-08|| ||Marmot PFL: I followed Mr Nunn's line up to move 19 whre I played d7+, ex...Kxd7 20.Rd1+ Ke8 (or Bd6 Rxd6+ Kxd6 Qe5+ etc.) 21.Qe4 Rc8 22.Qb7 which I believe wins as Qa1+ is no help for black. Not "seeing" all the way to mate in these lines, but intuitively feel that the attack is so strong that the sacs are justified.|
|Mar-30-08|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: <johnlspouge: ... I disagree. At least 18...Qxa2 counterattacks, where other alternatives quietly put Black in a box to await his fate. ... Psychologically, 18...Qxa2 was the toughest move to anticipate, because without 18.Be2, Rh1 appears at risk.>|
I must respectfully disagree with your disagreement and with your assessment of Qxa2. The move is easy to anticipate -- after all, the a2 pawn is always a weak spot after castling long. Furthermore, losing Rh1 is a very small concern for white - it takes black Q far too out of play. And Rh8 is facing the same kind of risk anyway.
Look again at the position after 17.Rxd5 Qxd5 Be2 (which is about as far as I was 100% sure the solution would go):
click for larger view
It is quite clear that the d-pawn is a major threat here once it gets supported by Rd1. At this point I fully expected black to neutrailize this threat - the only question was whether the correct move would be Bxd6 or Qxd6.
Tangential note: in my attempt to solve the puzzle, I looked at 18...Qa2 19.Rd1 as a possible continuation. Even though it is highly sub-optimal compared to 19.Qf3, it also wins, and gives white more advantage than he would have afer 18...Bxd6.
Addendum regarding the risk to Rh1: Hiarcs tells me that 23...Qxh1 is a big blunder, allowing forced mate. A better response would be:
23... Qa5 24. b4 Qd8 25. Bd3 (followed by 25...Bxc5 26. bxc5 or perhaps 26...g6 or Kg8 to get the K some breathing room).
Yes, any of above leaves black a bishop short, and obviously loses in the long run, but 23...Qxh1 is an even more obvious loss. Just about any natural move by white wins: 24.Qb8 - mates in 7, 24.Qc7 mates in 8, 24.Bxd6 mates in 10.
|Mar-30-08|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: <znprdx: <MostlyAverageJoe:> and Nunn :) <After ...Bxd6 19.Rd1 keeps up the pressure forcing Qf6. Now 20.Bf3>|
Unlike Nunn :-) I was aware that 19.Rd1 would've been the correct continuation, since <crwynn> posted it a couple minutes before my response (after noticing it I actually took out a part of my post to avoid duplication). And Rd1 is quite easy to spot without computer help, following the common rule about rooks belonging on open files.
BTW, I guess you meant Qc6 (Qf6 is illegal, and if you meant Qf5, then Bf3 would lose to Bxf4). However, look at the <RandomVisitor>'s post on the first page of comment. Rd1 in no way forces Qf6 - 19...Qxa2, 19...Qxg2, 19...Bxf4 are all better alternatives.
|Mar-30-08|| ||johnlspouge: <<MostlyAverageJoe> wrote: <johnlspouge: ... I disagree. At least 18...Qxa2 counterattacks, where other alternatives quietly put Black in a box to await his fate. ... Psychologically, 18...Qxa2 was the toughest move to anticipate, because without 18.Be2, Rh1 appears at risk.>
I must respectfully disagree with your disagreement and with your assessment of Qxa2.>|
I will avoid the obvious riposte :)
To explain more carefully, I was giving a statement about my psychological difficulties during analysis. Apparently two GMs did not think my fears about 18...Qxa2 entirely unreasonable. That said, I found everything you wrote about the objective merits of the various moves quite sound, as usual.
Your computations essentially give the final analysis. Although others might not share my opinion, I appreciate having some objective standard lurking in the background. Thanks, <MAJ>.
|Mar-30-08|| ||wals: Had Rxd5 as one of many reasonable moves but it was all above my head|
Fritz differs from Black on move 18. ...Qd5xd6
Time 9min Depth 47
John Nunn - John Fedorowicz, It (ca
Analysis by Fritz 11:
1. (1.74): 17.Rd1xd5 Qc6xd5 18.Bf1-e2 Qd5xd6 19.Rh1-d1 Qd6-b8 20.Be2-f3 Bf8-e7 21.Bf3-c6+ Ke8-f8 22.Rd1-d7 Be7-h4 23.Bb6-d4 Kf8-g8 24.Bd4-e5 Qb8-c8 25.Rd7-c7 Qc8-b8
2. (0.39): 17.d6-d7+ Qc6xd7 18.Qe3-d4 Qd7-e7 19.Bf1-d3 Qe7-f6 20.Qd4xf6 g7xf6 21.Rh1-e1 Ra8-b8 22.Bb6-d4 Bf8-d6 23.g2-g3 Ke8-e7 24.b2-b3 Bd5-f3 25.Bd3-e2
|Mar-30-08|| ||LIFE Master AJ: I guessed the correct move almost instantly, however, I then took nearly 30 minutes of analysis to find the win in all lines. (Rust? Its been a long time since I did one of these. And I used to set myself a five or ten minute limit on all of these problems.)|
|Mar-30-08|| ||LIFE Master AJ: BTW, this was a beautiful game. Nunn played great chess. A nice miniature ... perhaps one I should annotate for my website.|
|Mar-31-08|| ||kevin86: Both sides go for rook along the last row (not a James Fenimore Cooper novel, BTW),but white wins it with a double crosspin (not to be used for hanging clothes).|
|Apr-13-10|| ||zooter: I need some help here...
22.Bc5 Bxc5 and then I assume the continuation would be something like:
23. Qc8+ Ke7 24.Qc7+ Ke8 (24...Kf8 25.Qd8#; 24...Kf6 25.Qd4+ Kg6 26.Bh5#) 25.Rd1 Qa1+ 26.Kd2 Qxb2 27.Ke1 Bd4 seems to hold?
Any thoughts on where I missed a better continuation?
|Apr-13-10|| ||Chess Network: I agree with <LifeMasterAJ>...beautiful game...nice miniature.|
|Apr-13-10|| ||zooter: Ok, forget it... After 22.Bc5 Bxc5 23.Qc8+ Ke7 24.Qxc5+ quickly leads to mate or win of material|
|Apr-13-10|| ||whiteshark: John, second to nunn.|
|Apr-13-10|| ||Calelsdad22: Rxd5 was an opportunistic move as it did 4 thing for white:|
1. exposes the black queen for attack
2. preserving d6 pawn which creates a lot a pressure for black 3. cramping down the already cramp position of black, keeping the king in the center 4. a good set up for attacking black king
With this, black has no move that will solve all 4 of them, to which all could lead fatal for black. It like hitting 4 birds with one stone. :)
Of course it wouldn't be done without a good follow up with Be2.
|Apr-13-10|| ||kevin86: The double pin decides this one.|
|Apr-13-10|| ||ROO.BOOKAROO: A really lovely game by John Nunn. He has the modesty not to include this one in the collection of 112 games in his own famous book of The World's Greatest Chess Games (112), although two of his other games are included, enough for his pride.|
|Apr-13-10|| ||Jim Bartle: It's in his Best Games book, though.|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·