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Robert James Fischer vs Tigran Vartanovich Petrosian
Bled (1961), Bled YUG, rd 18, Sep-30
Caro-Kann Defense: Karpov Variation (B17)  ·  1-0
ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

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Given 64 times; par: 59 [what's this?]

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Jan-09-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: <AylerKupp>: It may have been a psychological ploy by the Armenian grandmaster.
Jan-09-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  RandomVisitor: After the proposed improvement 31...Nd7: diagram as previously posted above, Rybka4.1

<[+0.44] d=27 32.Rb5> Kd6 33.Rxb4 Rh2 34.h4 Rh3 35.Rb5 f5 36.Ka4 Rxg3 37.b4 Rc3 38.c5+ Kc7 39.Rb7+ Kd8 40.Ra7 g5 41.hxg5 hxg5

Jan-09-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <perfidious> Yup, see my response to <RandomVisitor> above. Or maybe Petrosian and Tal were practicing their signals for Curacao 1962. ;-)
Jan-09-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: <AylerKupp.....maybe Petrosian and Tal were practicing their signals for Curacao 1962.>

Maybe they already knew where the true danger lay.....

Jan-09-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  RandomVisitor: After 31...Kd6:


click for larger view

Rybka 4.1 x64:

<[+0.37] d=25 32.c5+> Kc7 33.Bh1 Nd5 34.Kc4 Rxb2 35.Bxd5 exd5+ 36.Kxd5 Kb7 37.g4 Rd2+ 38.Kc4 Rc2+ 39.Kxb4 Rb2+ 40.Kc4 Rc2+ 41.Kd5 Rd2+ 42.Ke5 Kc6 43.Ra7 Rf2 44.Kd4 Rf4+ 45.Ke3 Rf1 46.Ke2 Rf4 47.Ra5

Jan-09-14  SChesshevsky: <AylerKupp: Still, I find it difficult to believe that Petrosian didn't think that Fischer was a "street-smart opponent", even back in 1961...>

This one has always puzzled me. It certainly doesn't look like Black's better at the draw offer so I can see why he offered and why White wouldn't accept at that point. But I could never figure out why Petrosian would then attempt complications from there.

Fischer seems to imply that he psyched the Russians out. While possible, it may not be likely as complications from a position of weakness is not Petrosian's style especially if drawing is acceptable. I also don't think they would have underestimated Fischer by 61.

Did Petrosian just forget to pick-off the Knight before ...Rd6? It would've been interesting to get his side of the story.

Jan-10-14  RookFile: It's strange. I think most people would prefer black's position after 27....Nxe4. A draw would be a very likely outcome.
Jan-10-14  SChesshevsky: It looks like after 27...Nxe4 28. Rxe4 White gets to protect the passed pawn and probably double rooks on the d-file.

Though as the saying goes "all rook endings are draws" Black has to make sure White can't exchange a rook with advantage or exchange both rooks. All while guarding against dropping a Qside pawn after White invades especially as there's no way the Black K can get over there without exchanging rooks.

I've always figured Petrosian may have just flubbed by touching the Rook forgetting he didn't already take off the B or he thought he was worse off than Fischer implies. The MSMG's explanation that Petrosian missed 28. Bxa8 didn't seem very convincing.

Jan-10-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: <SChessevsky......I've always figured Petrosian may have just flubbed by touching the Rook forgetting he didn't already take off the B or he thought he was worse off than Fischer implies. The MSMG's explanation that Petrosian missed 28. Bxa8 didn't seem very convincing.>

It is possible for even top-class players to misjudge a position in the heat of battle; they are, after all, merely human beings, same as we ordinary woodpushers.

Jan-10-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  Travis Bickle: Simply Bobby!
Jan-10-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  RandomVisitor: Final look at improvement attempts after 31.Kb3: <Rybka4.1>

a) 31...Nd7 [+0.43] d=28 32.Rb5 Kd6 33.Rxb4 f5 34.a4 e5 35.a5 e4 36.Kc3 Rf3+ 37.Kd2 Nc5 38.a6 Rf2+ 39.Ke3 Rf3+ 40.Ke2 Nxa6 41.Rb6+ Kc5 42.Rxa6 Rxg3 43.Ra5+ Kxc4 44.h4 Rg2+ 45.Ke3 Rxb2 46.Rxf5 g6 47.Rf6

b) 31...Kd6 [+0.69] d=28 32.c5+ Kc7 33.a4 bxa3 34.Kxa3 Rd2 35.b4 Nd7 36.Be4 Rd4 37.Ra7+ Kb8 38.Ra8+ Kc7 39.Bc2 h5 40.Ba4 Rd3+ 41.Kb2 Ne5 42.Bb5 Rxg3 43.Ra7+ Kb8 44.Re7 Rg2+ 45.Kb3 Rg1 46.Ba6 Rb1+ 47.Kc3

Jan-11-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  RandomVisitor: <erniecohen><As far as I can tell, 33...Kc7 (which Fischer doesn't mention in his book) seems like a draw. For example, 34. Rxb4 Nd7 35. Rb7+ Kc8 36. Rb5 Rxh3+ 37. a4 Rxg3+ 38. b4 Nxc5 39. Rxc5+ Kb8 40. Bc6 Rxb4. Anyone claim a win for White?>Well ErnieCohen, let's take a look:


click for larger view

Rybka 4.1 x64:

<[+1.44] d=27 34.Rxb4 Nd7 35.Rb5> Rxh3 36.a4 Rxg3+ 37.Kc2 Rg4 38.b3 e5 39.Rb7+ Kc8 40.c6 Nc5 41.Rxf7 Kb8 42.Rf8+ Kc7 43.a5 Ne6 44.Rf7+ Kb8 45.Bb7 Rg3 46.b4 Nd4+ 47.Kd2 Rb3 48.Rf8+ Kc7 49.Rc8+

Jan-11-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  offramp: < perfidious: <AylerKupp.....maybe Petrosian and Tal were practicing their signals for Curacao 1962.>

Maybe they already knew where the true danger lay.....>

Whatever their opinion before the start of Curaçao 1962, it would have changed after the first 2 rounds; Fischer still had 0 after 2 rounds.

Jan-22-14  MarkFinan: <AylerKupp: <<SeanAzarin> Fischer on the game: "Right after I made [my 27th move] Petrosian offered a draw.> How can that be? The rules of chess do no allow a player to offer a draw until after the player has made a move. So Petrosian could not legally offer a draw after Fisher's 27th move or, for that matter, after any of Fischer's moves, without first playing a move of his own. I'm assuming that both Fischer and Petrosian were familiar with the rules of chess.>

Well obviously I can't speak for players of that calibre but I remember once a guy just kinda raising his eyebrows and offering his hand but I knew what he meant. Not sure who's turn it was like, but that stuck with me because it was the first game I played at a tournament that was out of my age group, like an open tournament or something. I think I'm going buy a book on Fischer, not about his games of chess, more a bio of some kind. Either him or Tal anyways.

Feb-17-14  SpiritedReposte: I read in one book or another if you are in a rated tourney and someone offers a draw when they are to move you should...

a) sit there and see how much time they let drain from their clock lol or

b) if you are nicer say "make your move and I will consider it"

either way you have a draw in hand even if he finds some unforseen winning move! Not really good to offer draws when you are on the move.

Feb-17-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  Sally Simpson: Hi,

"Yet I am still puzzled why the experienced Petrosian would have offered a draw out of turn."

"It may have been a psychological ploy by the Armenian grandmaster."

Possibly true or maybe Petrosian's mind went back to 1958 when after playing 67.f7.


click for larger view

Fischer offered a draw out of turn to Petrosian not realising it was "bad etiquette."

Game 3 M60MG.

Petrosian vs Fischer, 1958

Feb-19-14  SpiritedReposte: I can see offering a draw when its your move in a completely, absolutely dead drawn position. But that assessment will differ from person to person.
Feb-19-14  Granny O Doul: I've seen Kasparov offer draws "out of turn", in the strict sense, a couple of times. Once he was on the verge of creating K vs. K and the other was comparably trivial. Still, if one likes protest for its own sake, they were opportunities.
Feb-19-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  morfishine: <perfidious> I agree with this comment: <It may have been a psychological ploy by the Armenian grandmaster> Less likely is that Petrosian miscalculated the position as a dead draw
May-07-15  Zugzwangovich: If Black had not resigned I wonder which mate (Ra7, Re7, Rf7), if any, would be the most "chessic?" I'd probably be a wise guy and play Rf7 but I'm sure there are those who would consider that rather cheeky.
Jan-08-16  Joker2048: Surely Bobby Fischer will rejected the offer of drawing, He hates draws.
And the most of his loses because of that,
Lol...
Apr-21-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  Phony Benoni: Regarding the kibitz by <sneaky pete> back on Nov-06-12:

---

"<sneaky pete>: White could have played 22.Qxg7 .. and if 22... Ke7 23.dxc5 Qc6 24.Bg6 Rdf8 Igor Arkadievich Zaitsev suggested (around 1972) 25.Rhe1 ..


click for larger view

when after 25... Rhg8 26.Rd6 Rxg7 (26... Qc8 27.Rexe6+ Qxe6 28.Rxe6+ Kxe6 29.Bf5+ .. winning) 27.Rxc6 Rxg6 28.Rc7+ ..


click for larger view

black is in big trouble."
---

Predating Zaitsev, this line appeared as a note in Al Horowitz's <Solitair Chess> feature (Chess Life & Review, November 1969, p. 468).

Oct-19-17  ewan14: Petrosian and Tal perfected ( their ) drawing signals at the 1959 Candidates tournament
Jan-13-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  SpaceRunner: According to Jens Enevoldesen was Tal standing close to the board rather unpatiently watimg for the draw. Did Fischer accept the drawoffer then Tal in reality would have won the tournament before the last round. Therefore Fischer declined the draw offer!. "Bobby Fischers vej til VM" Bramsen % Hjort ,1972

Jan-09-14 SChesshevsky: <AylerKupp: Still, I find it difficult to believe that Petrosian didn't think that Fischer was a "street-smart opponent", even back in 1961...> This one has always puzzled me. It certainly doesn't look like Black's better at the draw offer so I can see why he offered and why White wouldn't accept at that point. But I could never figure out why Petrosian would then attempt complications from there.

Fischer seems to imply that he psyched the Russians out. While possible, it may not be likely as complications from a position of weakness is not Petrosian's style especially if drawing is acceptable. I also don't think they would have underestimated Fischer by 61.

Did Petrosian just forget to pick-off the Knight before ...Rd6? It would've been interesting to get his side of the story.

Feb-06-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  zborris8: 36.Kc4 I wonder how many casual players would find that in a mate in three puzzle?
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