< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
|Jul-13-11|| ||agb2002: <gofer: <agb2002> I looked at <16 ... Bf8 17 cxb6 Bax3 18 Nc4 ...> and felt that <18 ... Bb4> made things a little uncomfortable for white. White might feel that <19 Re3> is necessary at which point <19 ... Be6> makes thing even less clear!>|
Yes, the position is not very clear. For example, instead of 19.Re3, White might play 19.b7 Rb8 20.Ncxe5 Bxe1 21.Qxd7 Qxd7 22.Nxd7 with probably the better endgame.
|Jul-13-11|| ||Domdaniel: Hmm. I thought 16.c5 Nc8? 17.Nb7 was exceptionally simple, and was going to say that it was better suited for a Monday.|
Then I saw that ...Nc8 is a blunder, because the loose Ba3 makes White's threat of cxb6 less clearcut. But it soon becomes apparent that White wins anyway, even in the face of a more resilient defence.
When Black is constricted like this, something is bound to snap.
|Jul-13-11|| ||kingfu: Does anyone, besides me, have bad dreams about being SMOTHERED?|
Pillow to face one.
|Jul-13-11|| ||ZZpatzer: <kingfu: Does anyone, besides me, have bad dreams about being SMOTHERED?>|
No, but I have a fears of being bound in a straightjacket and unable to escape :-)
|Jul-13-11|| ||kevin86: Wow! I missed the smothering of the queen;instead,I played Nxe5-black will lose a little slower,but i think he's cooked.|
|Jul-13-11|| ||castledweller: Fischer reminds me of a python at times . . .
Continually achieving a better position, tightening his grip so that his opponent has fewer and fewer options and flexibility.
This position did not force black to lose the queen (and the game) immediately . . .
But with Fischer as your opponent, it may as well have. With that position and up in material, it would most likely be a slow but inevitable crush by the master.
|Jul-13-11|| ||Domdaniel: <PinnedPiece> Strategically placed coffee cups are dangerous. I know, because I once poured a mug of sugary black coffee all over my motherboard, after a cat jumped up on me out of nowhere. The sugar is particularly lethal.|
If you want to see the game score displayed up to the puzzle position and no further, here's an idea. Suppose, as here, the puzzle begins at move 16. Play through the first 15 moves and then enter a random 16th move manually - the worse the better, as you don't want to find the solution by accident.
Here, suppose you enter 16.Kh1. Then go back one move, and the puzzle position after 15...Be7 returns - but your 'variation' appears in the scoresheet, with the real moves hidden until you want to see them.
|Jul-13-11|| ||PinnedPiece: <Dom> Yeah, I have tried that actually. I am such a putz that I CANNOT avoid looking at the solution move.....at least not every time.|
|Jul-13-11|| ||scormus: <chessgames.com> thanks for the reassurance. Yes, quite a lot of tricky stuff underneath the surface. I didnt make it today.|
|Jul-13-11|| ||jumperino: Did anyone look at 16 Bxe7 Rxe7 17 c5 ? Now the knight has to move with the only safe square being c8...then we have Nxc6 forking the queen and rook and the bishop is pinned. Any problems with this line?|
|Jul-13-11|| ||Sastre: <jumperino: Did anyone look at 16 Bxe7 Rxe7 17 c5 ? Now the knight has to move with the only safe square being c8...then we have Nxc6 forking the queen and rook and the bishop is pinned. Any problems with this line?>|
Instead of 16...Rxe7, Black should play 16...Qxe7, which prevents any immediate material loss.
|Jul-13-11|| ||jumperino: What?? You mean the queen can move diagonally!?
Thanks Sastre - knew there was something I just wasn't seeing.
|Jul-13-11|| ||David2009: Fischer vs J Terrone, 1964 postscript: <patzer2: <David2009>, Against 16. c5 f5 Fritz likes 17. cxb6! Bxa3 18. b7! [snip]>
<patzer2> thanks for this. Your Fritz analysis reads the EGT's mind in the variation <16...f5 17.cxb6 Bxa3 18.b7 Rb8 19.b4 fxe4 20.Rxe4 Be6 21.Qxd8 Rexd8 22.Re3 Bb2 23.Rb1 Bd4 24.Nxd4
Rxd4 25.Rxe5 Bd7> until 26.Re7 when the EGT defends differently: 26...Kf8 to reach |
click for larger view
when White is a solid Pawn up with more active pieces. Further Crafty EGT link: http://www.chessvideos.tv/endgame-t...
It is not too difficult to win by centralising the pieces and activating the King: 27.Rbe1 Rd1 28.f4 Rxe1+ 29.Rxe1 Kf7 30.Kf2 Kf6 31.Kf3 h6 32.h3 g6 33.g4 Kf7 34.a3 h5 35.Re5 hxg4+ 36.hxg4 Kf8 37.Rc5 Kg7 38.g5 Kf8 39.Ke4 Kg7 40.Re5 Kf8 41.Kd4 Bh3 42.Kc5 Bg2 43.Re6 Kf7 44.Rf6+ Kg7 45.Rxc6 Kh8 46.Rxc7 Bxb7 47.Rxb7 1-0 (White moves are mine, Black's are the EGT).
|Jul-13-11|| ||DrMAL: <patzer2: <DrMal> Thanks for the illumination on 16. c5! f6 17. cxf6!> Glad to kibitz with you. This position is so much fun for someone like Fischer there being so many ways to win.|
In getting around to check with Houdini 1.5 I am a bit surprised that, after 16...f6 Fritz (version 12?) prefers 17.Qd3 it consistently ranks kinda low (as a function of depth) among the many available good moves (apparently, Qd2 is better):
Houdini_15a_x64: 24/60 15:44 4,089,271,966
+3.40 17.Re3 Be6 18.Rd3 Qc8 19.cxb6 cxb6
+3.32 17.Re2 Be6 18.Rd2 Qc8 19.cxb6 cxb6
+3.02 17.Nh4 Be6 18.Qc1 Qd7 19.cxb6 Bxa3
+3.02 17.cxb6 cxb6 18.Bxe7 Rxe7 19.Nc4 Qc7
+2.95 17.Qd2 Be6 18.Qc1 Qd7 19.cxb6 Bxa3
+2.90 17.h3 Be6 18.Qc1 Qd7 19.cxb6 Bxa3
+2.82 17.Rb1 Be6 18.Qc1 Qd7 19.cxb6 Bxa3
+2.81 17.h4 Be6 18.Qc1 Qd7 19.cxb6 Bxa3
+2.65 17.Kh1 Be6 18.Qc1 Qd7 19.cxb6 Bxa3
+2.49 17.Rc1 Rf8 18.Rc3 Be6 19.Qxd8 Raxd8
+2.45 17.Rf1 Rb8 18.Qd3 Be6 19.Qe2 Nd5
+2.36 17.Qd3 Be6 18.Qe3 Nd5 19.exd5 cxd5
Houdini can be downloaded for free at http://www.cruxis.com/chess/houdini... Having Rybka 4.1 as well (but not Fritz 12), I agree with Anand that it is the best one out there. In any event, I'm sure you'd agree that engines are useful but never any sort of end-all, cheers.
|Jul-13-11|| ||jheiner: 16.White to play. Medium/Easy
Fischer vs J Terrone, 1964
Material: N for B. White Ba3 hanging. Black Pe5 hanging and Pc6 loose.
Position: Black has doubled c-pawns, less space, but the B pair.
I had a really hard time with this one, and certainly went over any reasonable time limit.
Threatening to trap the Nb6. All escape squares are unsafe or blocked except Nc8, but 16...Nc8?? 17.Nb7 wins the trapped Qd8.
Black can ignore the threat though since the Ba3 is hanging. Trading the Be7 first frees the Q and the threat doesn't work. Further, look at 16...Rb8, covering the b7 square and providing Na8 as a possibility on the next tempo.
Now the Pc6 is hanging and Bd7 is loose, the Nb6 problem has yet to be solved, and White is up the central e5 pawn.
I think this is enough. Two pawns up with multiple threats and pins.
Time to check.
Well that was anticlimactic. Black definitely didn't play the best response. Time to read the kibitzing.
|Jul-13-11|| ||CHESSTTCAMPS: In this middlegame position, white has given up the two bishops for a superior pawn structure and a substantial mobility advantage. The split pawns on the black queenside provide enty points for the white knights. Black threatens 16... Bxa3 but white has a natural counter:|
The "self-pin" is temporary; white threatens 17.Nxe5, 17.b4 and 17.cxb6 against some replies. There is no good defense.
A) 16... Nc8? 17.Nb7 wins
B) 16... Bg4 (and other LSB moves) 17.Qxd8 Raxd8 (Bxd8 18.cxb6) 18.Nxc6 winning an exchange+P in view of 18... Rd7 19.Nxe7+ Rd(e)xe7 20.cxb6
C) 16... Qb8? 17.cxb6 Bxa3 18.Qxd7 wins a piece.
D) 16... Qc8? 17.cxb6 Bxa3 18.b7 wins.
E) 16... Bf8 17.b4 Nc8 18.Nxe5! Rxe5? (Best is Be6 dropping a 2nd pawn) 19.Nxc6 Qe8 20.Nxe5 Qxe5 21.Qxd7 wins.
Time for review....
|Jul-13-11|| ||James Bowman: Well again I was left off wandering aimlessly, not a good week seems I have tunnel vision. Clueless :o(|
|Jul-13-11|| ||wals: Rybka 4 x 64 : d 25 : 1hr21 min :
1. (2.48): 16.c5 f6 17.Re3 Be6 18.Rd3 Qc8 19.cxb6 cxb6 20.Bxe7 Rxe7 21.Nc4 Qc7 22.Qd2 a5 23.Rc1 Rb8 24.Nh4 g6 25.g3 Ree8 26.Nd6 Red8 27.Rd1 Qg7 28.Nc4 Rxd3 29.Qxd3 Qb7 30.Ng2 Kg7 31.Nge3
2. (1.02): 16.b4 Be6 17.Qc2 Nd7 18.Nxc6 Qc8 19.Nd2 Bf8 20.Nb3 Nb8 21.Nxe5 a5 22.Nc5 axb4 23.Bxb4 Bxc5 24.Bxc5 f6 25.Nd3 Qa6 26.Rec1 Nd7 27.Be3 Bf7 28.Nb4 Qa4 29.Nd5 Qxc2 30.Rxc2 Rxe4
16...Nc8, +7.86, ruined it for Black.
Black's troubles started earlier with-
10...Nb6, +1.42. Better was exd4, 0.41,
or 0-0, 0.53.
|Jul-13-11|| ||hedgeh0g: Saw 16.c5, but didn't see anything clearcut after that, since the pawn is pinned. Didn't give this one too much time, however...|
|Jul-13-11|| ||WhiteRook48: tunnel vision on my part. I failed completely.|
|Jul-14-11|| ||LIFE Master AJ: (See my original post.)
chessgames.com: We confess that this position is not nearly as clear-cut as we first believed it was when we selected it for Wednesday. Kudos to those who solved it.>
WITHOUT AN ENGINE ... I did not see any clean / forced win.
Thanks to those who sent me an e-mail, especially the gentleman who told me that I "blew it" entirely. (haha)
I never said I was perfect ... and even the staff here admitted things were not as "clear-cut" as you might have first imagined.
I was looking at ideas like ...f6; followed by ...Be6. (Or ...Bf8.) Again, without an engine - I saw no absolute, forced win. (I SUSPECTED White was better, but guessing or following a hunch is NOT the same thing as analysis!)
I also did not spend more than a few minutes on the problem, so my assessment was OK for the time I used. I have - since this AM - looked at this problem WITH an engine ... I have also explored the Crafty link that <D2009> usually provides; again things are not as easy as you might think. Crafty really muddies the water, after 16.c5, Crafty likes 16...f5!? Things get really messy after that, I took several tries to win against the machine, but was unsuccessful - until I used Fritz's help. (Everyone should try these ... its VERY good practice!!!)
But thanks to everyone who posted, and everyone that sent me e-mail ...
|Jul-22-11|| ||kingfu: I bet Fischer loved this type of position.
"Die slowly tasting your own blood."
Maybe Bobby said that out loud, maybe not. He was thinking it, anyway.
|May-03-13|| ||MainMansDad2006: Ole Bobby, up to his tricks...|
|May-03-13|| ||RookFile: A humorous, yet logical game.|
|Dec-03-14|| ||TheFocus: From a simul in New York, New York on May 24, 1964.
Fischer scored +34=0-0.
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·