|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 3 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Jul-13-11 | | ossipossi: RJF liked a lot to give his LSB for BQK in Spanish Game, and here BQK looks very awkward. |
 |
| Jul-13-11 | | sfm: Wow, this was a complicated "easy" one. Several answers to look at after 16.c5: 16.-,Bf8
16.-,Rb8
16.-,f6
but OK, White seems to win in any case.
The harder move to find is White's 15.c4!, which so clearly demonstrates the depressing problems Black has. I wonder what the best reply would be to that one. What a monster the night at a5 is. Untouchable and putting its bad breath onto the weak squares. The mate on b6 on the other hand is without pride, and was chosen to become an amusing traitor. Where did black go wrong? |
|
| Jul-13-11 | | ColeTrane: Knight down or queen down, bobby boy gonna beat ya |
|
| Jul-13-11 | | zb2cr: 16. c5 puts Black in a bad way. If he plays the obvious 16. ... Nc8; 17. Nb7! wins the Black Queen, Black has many reasonable tries such as 16. ... f6 but all of them seem to result in at least a small material loss. |
|
Jul-13-11
 | | sevenseaman: 16. c5 attacks the N and cuts off the e7B.
There is heavy stuff in the air if Black tries the hapless 16. Nc8; interesting in more ways than one. |
|
| Jul-13-11 | | gofer: Black has got himself in a pickle. Nb6 has only one escape square c8 and that would block in its queen! So white can force black into a corner. <16 c5! ...>
Let's start with the ones that are easy to dismiss... 16 ... Rb8 17 Nxe5 white can exploit Nxc6 next move.
16 ... f5 17 Nxe5 white can exploit Nxc6 next move.
16 ... f6 17 Qc1 losing the knight
16 ... Nc8 17 Nb7! losing the queen
16 ... Bxc5 17 Bxc5 losing the bishop
Then we have equally unlikely chances with moving Bd7 16 ... Bg4 17 Nxc6! Qxd1 18 Nxe7+ Rxe7 19 Raxd1 (Nb6 still has nowhere to go so black must resign! i.e.
19 ... Nc8 20 Rd8+ mating) 20 Nd7 c6!
So that just leaves one other possible defense...
<16 ... Bf8>
<17 b4 Nc8>
<18 Nxe5! ...>
click for larger viewNow that IS something that would have made Bobby Fischer smile. White is
tearing black's position to pieces. Black can't except the knight sac, because the second knight sac is on its way... <18 ... Rxe5 19 Nxc6! ... (19 ... Bxc6 20 Qxd8 winning) 19 ... Qf6 20 Nxe5 ...> White is two pawns and a R v N exchange up! Not bad for a couple of quiet pawn moves... So black must accept the loss of a key central pawn, with Pc6 looking doomed too. Not over by any means but pretty horrid for black. |
|
| Jul-13-11 | | Fuegoverde: If I have white I'll try 16 c5 and hope my rival will play the horrible ,16... Nc8?, so I can pick the trapped queen with 17 Nb7. If he tries any other move I still can play 17 b4 with a better game. |
|
Jul-13-11
 | | agb2002: White has a bishop and a knight for the bishop pair. Black threats 16... Bxa3.
The black knight doesn't have too many squares to move. This suggests 16.c5: A) 16... Nc8 17.Nb7 wins the queen.
B) 16... Bg4 17.Nxc6
B.1) 17... Qxd1 18.Raxd1
B.1.a) 18... Bf8 19.cxb6 Bxa3 20.b7 + -.
B.1.b) 18... Nc8 19.Ncxe5 + - [2P].
B.2) 17... Qc8 18.Ncxe5 + - [2P].
C) 16... Bf8 17.cxb6 Bxa3 18.Nc4 Bc5 19.Nfxe5 + - [2P], (19... cxb6 20.Qxd7). I haven't found anything stronger than 16.c5. |
|
Jul-13-11
 | | David2009: Fischer vs J Terrone, 1964 White 16? Because it's a puzzle I spot 16.c5! winning the N (since the only retreat 16...Nc8 allows 17.Nb7 winning the Q). OTB
I would probably have played 16.Bb2 Bf6=.
Time to check:
====
Egg on my face. Here's the puzzle position:
click for larger view
and here's a link to Crafty End Game Trainer:
http://www.chessvideos.tv/endgame-t...
16.c5 is met with 16...f5! and if 17.Nxe5 Bxc5!, or 17.b4 exf5. So White does NOT win a piece as I had thought. Any suggestions as to how best to continue as White against the EGT? |
|
| Jul-13-11 | | gofer: <agb2002> I looked at <16 ... Bf8 17 cxb6 Bax3 18 Nc4 ...> and felt that <18 ... Bb4> made things a little
uncomfortable for white. White might feel that <19 Re3> is necessary at which point <19 ... Be6>
makes thing even less clear! |
|
Jul-13-11
 | | patzer2: <DrMal> Thanks for the illumination on 16. c5! f6 17. cxf6!  . The Fritz preference 16. c5! f6 17. Qd3 of course also wins, but I suspect Bobby Fischer would have preferred your recommendation, which wins a piece with a a neat tactical threat if Black goes for 16. c5! f6 17. cxf6! Bxa3 (diagram).
click for larger view Here, as you state, White wins after 18. b7! Rb8
click for larger view19. b4!! when play might continue 19...Be6 (19...Bxb4 20. Qb3+ Kf8 21. Qxb4 ) 20. Qa4! with the greedy Bishop being trapped and White having complete domination of the position. |
|
| Jul-13-11 | | gofer: Oopps <16 ... f5> does pose quite a few problems for white. If white takes Pf5 then Nd5 is available.
If white takes Pe5 then Bxc5 is available.
Not an "Easy" Wednesday! |
|
Jul-13-11
 | | scormus: I think 16 ... Rb8 might be B's best shot. If W plays 17 Nxe5 then there is an interesting tactical line ... Bxc5 18 Nexc6 (Naxc6 may be the same) Bxc6
a) 19 Qxd8 Rbxd8 20 Nxc6 Rd6 21 Bxc5 Rxc6 and W is a pawn up
b) 19 Nxc6 Bxf2+ 20 Kxf2 Qf6+ 21 Qf3 (perhaps) Qxc6 and its fairly balanced alternatively 18 Bxc5 Rxe5 19 Bxb6 cxb6 20 Nc4 and a positional edge to W, I think Either way B finds a way to save the piece. Not sure if W can find a transposition to prevent that. I'll check it later with some Si |
|
Jul-13-11
 | | Patriot: 16.c5 is the only move I could find that "could" lead to a forced win. Those are the kinds of moves I'm interested in calculating OTB. 16...Nc8?? is unnecessary since the c5-pawn is pinned anyway, and allows 17.Nb7 winning the queen. If 16.c5 is the only move that could lead to a forced win, then can it not be played without further calculation? I continued and looked at 16...Be6 because the threat of 17.b4 is now "on", which unpins c5. Here I wasn't sure what would happen and thought 17.Nxe5 or 17.Nxc6 is winning. |
|
| Jul-13-11 | | Creg: I'll admit, 16...F5 instead of the move played gives white more problems, and without fritz it's challenging for us humans. However, I like how this puzzle gives us something to think about, and how together we can see the best way to continue. Too often some say chessgames makes a mistake with their GOTD, but I think they've done a great thing by bringing us together. |
|
Jul-13-11
 | | chessgames.com: We confess that this position is not nearly as clear-cut as we first believed it was when we selected it for Wednesday. Kudos to those who solved it. |
|
Jul-13-11
| | patzer2: <David2009>, Against 16. c5 f5 Fritz likes 17. cxb6! Bxa3 18. b7! Rb8
click for larger view19. b4! fxe4 (19... Bxb4 20. Qb3+ ) 20. Rxe4, when play might continue 20...Be6 21. Qxd8 Rexd8 22. Re3 Bb2 (22... Bxb4 23. Nxc6 ) 23. Rb1 Bd4 24. Nxd4 Rxd4 25. Rxe5 Bd7 26. Re7 Rd5 27. f4 h6 28. a3 Kf8 29. Rbe1 Rd3 30. h3 h5 31. Kh2 Kg8 32. h4 Kf8 33. R1e5 Rd5 34. Re3 Rd3 35. Rxg7 Kxg7 36. Rxd3 Be8 37. Re3 Kf7 38. Re5 Kf8 39. Re6 Kf7 
click for larger view40. Rxc6! Bxc6 41. Nxc6 Rxb7 42. Nd8+ Ke8 43. Nxb7 . |
|
Jul-13-11
 | | PinnedPiece: Wed time goal: 120 sec
I found a move 16.c5 within my time goal but did not have enough time to follow any other response than black moving the Knight at b6. Just too many pieces for 120 sec to be realistic at this point. If I had played the game to this point, then began the clock, 120 sec would be realistic for solving the puzzle. Even at three sec a move (the player's default auto mode--the button under 'f') I would have a much better understanding of the position. Anyway: due to other possible moves black had which I did not analyze, my result today: Fail.
NB: Chessgames.com might ask one of the java viewer developers to enable a mode in the player that can be commanded to do two things: * Show only moves up to the puzzle move
* Auto play only the moves up to the puzzle move
I think that would make these complex positions a lot more fun to try and solve. Periodically I try to hide the moves on the screen using one techniques or another (including coffee cup strategically positioned) but an autoplayer as described above would be great. . |
|
Jul-13-11
| | agb2002: <gofer: <agb2002> I looked at <16 ... Bf8 17 cxb6 Bax3 18 Nc4 ...> and felt that <18 ... Bb4> made things a little uncomfortable for white. White might feel that <19 Re3> is necessary at which point <19 ... Be6> makes thing even less clear!> Yes, the position is not very clear. For example, instead of 19.Re3, White might play 19.b7 Rb8 20.Ncxe5 Bxe1 21.Qxd7 Qxd7 22.Nxd7 with probably the better endgame. |
|
Jul-13-11
 | | Domdaniel: Hmm. I thought 16.c5 Nc8? 17.Nb7 was exceptionally simple, and was going to say that it was better suited for a Monday. Then I saw that ...Nc8 is a blunder, because the loose Ba3 makes White's threat of cxb6 less clearcut. But it soon becomes apparent that White wins anyway, even in the face of a more resilient defence. When Black is constricted like this, something is bound to snap. |
|
Jul-13-11
 | | kingfu: Does anyone, besides me, have bad dreams about being SMOTHERED? Pillow to face one. |
|
| Jul-13-11 | | ZZpatzer: <kingfu: Does anyone, besides me, have bad dreams about being SMOTHERED?> No, but I have a fears of being bound in a straightjacket and unable to escape :-) |
|
Jul-13-11
 | | kevin86: Wow! I missed the smothering of the queen;instead,I played Nxe5-black will lose a little slower,but i think he's cooked. |
|
| Jul-13-11 | | castledweller: Fischer reminds me of a python at times . . .
Continually achieving a better position, tightening his grip so that his opponent has fewer and fewer options and flexibility. This position did not force black to lose the queen (and the game) immediately . . . But with Fischer as your opponent, it may as well have. With that position and up in material, it would most likely be a slow but inevitable crush by the master. |
|
Jul-13-11
| | Domdaniel: <PinnedPiece> Strategically placed coffee cups are dangerous. I know, because I once poured a mug of sugary black coffee all over my motherboard, after a cat jumped up on me out of nowhere. The sugar is particularly lethal. If you want to see the game score displayed up to the puzzle position and no further, here's an idea. Suppose, as here, the puzzle begins at move 16. Play through the first 15 moves and then enter a random 16th move manually - the worse the better, as you don't want to find the solution by accident. Here, suppose you enter 16.Kh1. Then go back one move, and the puzzle position after 15...Be7 returns - but your 'variation' appears in the scoresheet, with the real moves hidden until you want to see them. |
|
|
|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 3 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
