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Jan-14-08
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| Eyal: <Ulhumbrus: <Eyal: <Ulhumbrus: 15 Nd4 threatens Nxf5. Instead of 15...Qxc5, On 15...Bd7 16 c6 bc 17 Nxc6 Bxc6 18 dxc6 0-0 190-0 Qc7 Black may be able to draw.> After 17.bxc6 (better than Nxc6 – why give up such a great centralized knight?) Bc8 18.f4 White is simply a sound pawn up with good winning chances.> On 18...Bg7 Black is ready to castle when Black has the bishop pair and White has a doubled isolated c pawn> I don't think the "bishop pair" is really dominant in this position - White's centralized knight on d4 is very strong, as well as the "isolated" but advanced pawn on c6. In retrospect it might have been better than what Fischer actually played, but I think Black is still clearly inferior and doesn't have compensation for the pawn - the most he can hope for is a long and hard struggle for a draw. A sample line (not forced, of course) might be 18.f4 Bg7 19.O-O O-O 20.Ra1 Qc7 21.Bd5; or 20...Qc5 21.e4 possibly followed by e5. 17...Qa5 is a move that makes mainly tactical sense, I think - trying to generate some active counterplay by attacking the c pawn while also tying White down by keeping observation on the bishop. In retrospect, of course, it turned out not to be good enough after 18.Qc2! (which was described by Petrosian, btw, as the most difficult move of the game). |
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Jan-14-08
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| Ulhumbrus: <Eyal: <Ulhumbrus: <Eyal: <Ulhumbrus: 15 Nd4 threatens Nxf5. Instead of 15...Qxc5, On 15...Bd7 16 c6 bc 17 Nxc6 Bxc6 18 dxc6 0-0 190-0 Qc7 Black may be able to draw.> After 17.bxc6 (better than Nxc6 – why give up such a great centralized knight?) Bc8 18.f4 White is simply a sound pawn up with good winning chances.> On 18...Bg7 Black is ready to castle when Black has the bishop pair and White has a doubled isolated c pawn> I don't think the "bishop pair" is really dominant in this position - White's centralized knight on d4 is very strong, as well as the "isolated" but advanced pawn on c6. In retrospect it might have been better than what Fischer actually played, but I think Black is still clearly inferior and doesn't have compensation for the pawn - the most he can hope for is a long and hard struggle for a draw. A sample line (not forced, of course) might be 18.f4 Bg7 19.O-O O-O 20.Ra1 Qc7 21.Bd5; or 20...Qc5 21.e4 possibly followed by e5. > On 20...Qc5 21 e4 e5 displaces the Nd4 which defends the c6 pawn |
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Jan-14-08
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| Eyal: <Ulhumbrus: On 20...Qc5 21 e4 e5 displaces the Nd4 which defends the c6 pawn> No it doesn't - it actually adds to Black's troubles by allowing an opening of the f file with strong pressure on f7 (somewhat similarly to the game itself) and strengthening White's control of d5 - [15...Bd7 16.c6 bxc6 17.bxc6 Bc8 18.f4 Bg7 19.O-O O-O 20.Ra1 Qc5 21.e4 e5] 22.fxe5 Qxe5 (22...Bxe5? 23.Rxf7! Rxf7 24.Rf1) 23.Bd5 (23...Be6 24.Ra5) - looks very bad for black. Of course, you can start suggesting now other moves which are somewhat better than 21...e5, but I don't think that any of them can change the basic long-term evaluation of this position as clearly inferior for Black. |
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Jan-14-08
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| Ulhumbrus: <Eyal: <Ulhumbrus: On 20...Qc5 21 e4 e5 displaces the Nd4 which defends the c6 pawn> No it doesn't - it actually adds to Black's troubles by allowing an opening of the f file with strong pressure on f7 (somewhat similarly to the game itself) and strengthening White's control of d5 - [15...Bd7 16.c6 bxc6 17.bxc6 Bc8 18.f4 Bg7 19.O-O O-O 20.Ra1 Qc5 21.e4 e5] 22.fxe5 Qxe5 (22...Bxe5? 23.Rxf7! Rxf7 24.Rf1) 23.Bd5 (23...Be6 24.Ra5) - looks very bad for black. Of course, you can start suggesting now other moves which are somewhat better than 21...e5, but I don't think that any of them can change the basic long-term evaluation of this position as clearly inferior for Black.> I think the opposite may be true: after 20..Qc5 21 e4 White stands badly as his pawns are broken, and Black has the bishop pair. However White is ahead in development and it may be a bad mistake for Black to open lines by ...e5 before he has caught up in development. In that case a much better alternative will be 21 e4 a5 preparing ..Ba6. The main mistake for Black to avoid is to open lines before catching up in development, at least enough to avoid danger such as a that of a sacrifice on f7. So an alternative to 21...e5 changes the evaluation considerably if it avoids making that mistake. |
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Jan-14-08
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| Jimfromprovidence: What about 20...a6 for black? The position is extremely complicated, but this line may have held up well.
click for larger view |
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Jan-15-08
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| Eyal: <Jimfromprovidence> I'm not sure what 20...a6 is meant to accomplish, but in any case it seems too slow. White can simply play 21.fxe3, and with the f file opened for the rook's pressure on f7, the move d6 (which is coming up anyway) would be crushing. Note that at move 20 fxe3 isn't so good for White because of 20...Qc5; but after 20.c5 black doesn't have this option anymore. |
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Jan-15-08
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| Jimfromprovidence: <Eyal> <I'm not sure what 20...a6 is meant to accomplish, but in any case it seems too slow. White can simply play 21.fxe3, and with the f file opened for the rook's pressure on f7, the move d6 (which is coming up anyway) would be crushing.> My concept was to keep the white queen from checking black's king on move 21, allowing black the opportunity to regroup and castle. However, I discovered that one of the moves I had in my continuation was not forcing, making my plan not viable. |
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Jan-15-08
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| Jimfromprovidence: <Eyal> <On the other hand, after 23...Qh5 24.f4 as played in the game it seems that Fischer had a better option than 24...e2 in <24...Bf6>>. I did take a look at this continuation and it looks like a very dynamic, intricate alternative to the text. 
click for larger view |
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Jan-15-08
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| Eyal: <Ulhumbrus: after [15...Bd7 16.c6 bxc6 17.bxc6 Bc8 18.f4 Bg7 19.O-O O-O 20.Ra1] 20..Qc5 21 e4 White stands badly as his pawns are broken, and Black has the bishop pair.> Why is White's pawn structure worse than Black's? Black has an isolated 'a' pawn, White a couple of isolated 'c' pawns - but one of them is an EXTRA pawn, and very tangible as such because an advanced passer; it's not as if Black has a majority on the other wing. And as I said in an earlier post, I don't think Black's bishop pair is so impressive here - after 21.e4 a5, 22.e5 limits the scope of Bg7 and the knight on d4 seems like the better minor piece. |
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Jan-15-08
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| Jimfromprovidence: Beginning with the alternative move 24 ...Bf6, one example of a possible continuation is the following: 24...Bf6 25 Rd5 Qg4 26 dxe7+ Bxe7 27 Re5 Rg8 28 Qe4 Re8 29 Qxb7 e2 30 Rf2 Qc8 31 Qd5 Rg7 32 Rfxe2 Qc5+ 33 Kf1 Qxd5 34 Bxd5 f6 
click for larger viewThe position is equal with this continuation. |
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Jan-15-08
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| taroak: Kasparov played the same line as Black against Karpov and lost too. My gut says this is a playable line for Black but the two games have have shed a damning light on the variation. I have not studied this line much but have studied the two games and believe that Black can survive the opening. |
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Jan-15-08
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| ganstaman: <taroak> Kasparov played 10...Qxd2, which I'm pretty sure isn't as good as 10...Qa5 (at least it looks it and some have said so). If you click on "find similar games" under the board, you can see examples of black winning or drawing with this opening. So don't give up! |
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| Jan-17-08 |
| Brown: <Eyal> <In spite of Petrosian's impressive win in this game, he avoided 1.d4 in his next two games with White (no. 4&6 in the match) and chose instead some distinctly timid opening setups.> Exactly. Petrosian, past his prime by about 8 years, didn't have the nerves to play his best stuff. Spassky also was past his prime, if only because he was of the personality that would lose focus after winning the WC. It really is no surprise Fischer blitzkrieged him as well. No one really knew what Korchnoi was to become, but he is really the only one during this time to challenge Fischer, as he is the only one nearing his prime, despite his (controversial) loss to Petrosian. |
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| Jan-29-08 |
| jovack: Awesome game. There is really nothing jawdropping, but after petrosian accepted the gambit, he played a very, very accurate defense. One slip and Fischer would have no doubt been all over him. Quite a good match. |
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Feb-14-08
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| Ulhumbrus: <Eyal: <Ulhumbrus: after [15...Bd7 16.c6 bxc6 17.bxc6 Bc8 18.f4 Bg7 19.O-O O-O 20.Ra1] 20..Qc5 21 e4 White stands badly as his pawns are broken, and Black has the bishop pair.> Why is White's pawn structure worse than Black's? Black has an isolated 'a' pawn, White a couple of isolated 'c' pawns - but one of them is an EXTRA pawn, and very tangible as such because an advanced passer; it's not as if Black has a majority on the other wing. And as I said in an earlier post, I don't think Black's bishop pair is so impressive here - after 21.e4 a5, 22.e5 limits the scope of Bg7 and the knight on d4 seems like the better minor piece.> Black's pieces seem to have better access to White's c pawns than White's pieces have good accesss to Black's a pawn. After 22...Rab8 ( otherwise White may play Rb1 and Rb5 forcing Black Q out of the square c5) the e5 pawn may become a target for ...f6 or even ...g5 following the move ...Kh8 |
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Feb-14-08
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| whatthefat: A really nicely played game from both sides, I enjoyed it. |
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Apr-18-08
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| jessicafischerqueen: I'm very surprised this game has not been a <CG.com> Game of the Day yet. It's a stunning and beautiful game, with Fischer playing very aggressively and Petrosian very aggressive as well. Petrosian proving that his advancing connected center pawns are worth several piecss-- And Bobby's Rooks banished by the advancing pawns to defending the last rank-- Then the "flushing of the king" so that it's Mate, not back rank promotion, that brings Fischer down. Plus- psychologically, a huge game for Petrosia.
Draws after this game-- the outcome was genuinely in doubt for the early part of this great match. |
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| Oct-15-08 |
| Alphastar: <Ulhumbrus> The bishop pair is worth bilge in the positions after 15. ..Bd7 16. c6 bxc6 17. dxc6 Bc8 18. f4 Bg7 19. O-O O-O 20. Ra1 etc.
Black has an extra piece (bishop) on the dark squares, but said dark-squared bishop is biting on the granite d4-knight, which dominates the position. That black can more easily get at the white c-pawns than white can get at the black a-pawn is, first of all, not important, because the black a-pawn isn't going to start running soon while the c6-pawn is firmly supported; secondly, it's not even true, because the dominance exerted by the c6-pawn combined with the good position of the white pieces makes it extremely hard for black to find a good plan.
Your move of 21. ..a5 exemplifies this, because there is simply no good place to put the c8-bishop - hence you are shelving the decision on where to put it. it cannot go to b7 or d7, and taking it off the c8-h3 diagonal is impossible in view of such moves as e6 and f5. Your plan of playing ..Kh8 followed by ..f6 and ..g5 is absurd; the white pieces are infinitely better placed so opening the position is in white's favor. |
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| Nov-06-08 |
| Maximus0723: I love how people find various sh.it to downgrade how great Fischer was. |
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| Nov-06-08 |
| khursh: <Maximus0723:> can you be concrete? |
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| Nov-06-08 |
| Alphastar: < Maximus0723: I love how people find various sh.it to downgrade how great Fischer was.> You had best give examples, otherwise you are just being a troll. |
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Jan-11-09
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| Peligroso Patzer: Notwithstanding his ultimate loss of this game (breaking his phenomenal 19-game winning streak), which loss was primarily attributable to his inaccurate 13th, 17th and 24th moves (not to mention Petrosian’s brilliant play), Fischer showed better judgment on move 10 than did World Champion Garry Kasparov in the identical position in the 5th game of the 1986 World Championship Re-match, where 10. … Qxd2+ led to his being steadily positionally crushed: Karpov vs Kasparov, 1986
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Jan-11-09
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| Peligroso Patzer: Keene and Simpole in "Petrosian vs. the Elite" (Batsford 2006) at page 205 give a line beginning with 23. ... exf2+ that they claim wins for White: 24. Rxf2 Bxh2+ 25. Kxh2 Qxf2 26. dxe7+ Kg7 27. Qg4+ Kf6 28. Qc4 Kxe7 29. Rf1, but 28. ... Kg5 (in lieu of ... Kxe7) threatening to force an exchange of Queens would be an improvement that would give Black reasonable chances to hold. In this line, White should prefer 28. Bxf7 [given by Kasparov in MGP vol. III] or 28. Rd3. |
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| Feb-03-09 |
| uaregg: this game is just amazing |
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Feb-03-09
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| Eyal: <Peligroso Patzer: Keene and Simpole in "Petrosian vs. the Elite" (Batsford 2006) at page 205 give a line beginning with 23. ... exf2+ that they claim wins for White: 24. Rxf2 Bxh2+ 25. Kxh2 Qxf2 26. dxe7+ Kg7 27. Qg4+ Kf6 28. Qc4 Kxe7 29. Rf1, but 28. ... Kg5 (in lieu of ... Kxe7) threatening to force an exchange of Queens would be an improvement that would give Black reasonable chances to hold.> Actually, White does have a clear win after 28...Kg5 in this line (which means that 28.Qc4 is good enough) - it would be quite incredible if he didn't, with the black king so exposed... 29.Rd5+ f5 (29...Kf6 30.Qe4) 30.Qc3! (aiming for Qg7+ and removing the threat of the queen exchange by Qh4+) is utterly hopeless for Black; e.g. 30...Rhg8 31.Rd3
Rg6 32.Rg3+ Kh6 33.Rh3+ Kg5 34.Bf7, or 30...Qf4+ 31.Kg1 Rhg8 32.Rd4 Qe5 33.Rg4+. |
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