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Boris Spassky vs Robert James Fischer
Fischer - Spassky World Championship Match (1972)  ·  Nimzo-Indian Defense: Normal Variation. Gligoric System Bernstein Defense (E56)  ·  1-0
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Boris Spassky vs Robert James Fischer (1972)

Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 28 OF 28 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Jan-03-16  Everett: <A book could be written about Fischer's impact on the recent history of chess. I'd probably start with his 4-0 loss to Tal and 2-2 draw with Keres at the 1959 Candidates, which probably ensured that Tal qualified to play Botvinnik in 1960 instead of Keres.>

I think it's better, truer, more appropriate, simply to reward Tal.

Otherwise "influence" can get pretty slippery, as in "how he helped Petrosian win in '62, and how Spassky won two candidates cycles because he couldn't bring himself to compete," which is all ridiculous.

Jan-03-16  Dionyseus: <beatgiant> For example if 39.Be7


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then black can simply defend its position with 39...Kf5 40.a4 e4 41.Bd8 b5 42.axb5 Ke5


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and black's king can go from e5 to f5 or e6 and there's nothing white can do to break this formation. White's bishop is completely useless here.

Jan-03-16  Jim Bartle: <I'd probably start with his 4-0 loss to Tal and 2-2 draw with Keres at the 1959 Candidates, which probably ensured that Tal qualified to play Botvinnik in 1960 instead of Keres.>

One of many factors. Primarily I'd say that excepting their head-to-head games, Tal scoring19/24 and Keres scoring 15.5/24 was pretty decisive.

Jan-03-16  Dionyseus: <beatgiant> And if in my 31...Ke7! line white instead plays 34.Kxg3 instead of b6 the draw is even easier.

After 34.Kxg3


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34...Kc5 35.a4 Kb4 36.b6 axb6 37.Kh4 g6 38.e4 Kxa4 39.Bb2 e5 40.f4 exf4 41.Bxf6 Kb5 42.Kg5 f3 43.Bd4 Kc6 44.Bf2 Kd7 45.Bxb6 Ke6 46.Bd2 f2 47.Bxf2


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And this is a 7 piece tablebase draw!

Jan-04-16  beatgiant: <Dionyseus>
Thanks. In that case, I'll take some time and probably post improvements in a week or two, if nobody else has refuted these lines in the meantime.
Jan-04-16  beatgiant: <Dionyseus>
By the way, this is not the first and maybe not even the second time someone has suggested 31...Ke7, but I agree it's like heck to go through the 27 pages of kibitzing. There's a lot of good quality analysis there, but you'd probably have to create a temporary ignore list of everything else.
Jan-04-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <Dionyseus> Thanks for all the hard work. This is the game whose analysis never seems to die. I had always planned to go back and revisit the Rybka analysis that I did more than 3 years ago but with newer and stronger engines (plural) since different engines give different results. I just never got around to it. So now you've given me some motivation to do so.

I started looking at your analysis using Houdini 4, Komodo 9.2 and the new Stockfish 7 but I have not gotten very far yet since I have some friends visiting me. I will also revisit Speelman's analysis using these 3 engines and see how their results differ from Rybka's (there is no question in my mind that they will). It would be helpful if you posted some of your computer analysis indicating what engine(s) and tablebases you used, and search depths achieved. One of the things that I learned with the positions reached during the analysis in this game is that I needed to let the engine(s) search deeper than what I normally do since the evaluations tend to change if you let the engines run deeper. This, unfortunately, takes more time.

One thing that interested me is that since it's clear that Fischer cannot save his bishop by ...h5 and ...h4, then just like you suggested 31...Ke7 to begin centralizing Black's king instead, maybe foregoing 30...h5 and playing 30...Ke7 would not only save a tempo, but Black's h-pawn would be safer from attack on h7 rather than on h5. Yet another idea to try to improve Black's drawing chances.

I'll post some intermediate results as soon as I have a chance to review them.

Jan-04-16  Dionyseus: <beatgiant> <By the way, this is not the first and maybe not even the second time someone has suggested 31...Ke7, but I agree it's like heck to go through the 27 pages of kibitzing. There's a lot of good quality analysis there, but you'd probably have to create a temporary ignore list of everything else. >

I don't know about outside of this thread but I doubt it had been posted in this thread, I went through all 27 pages a few times and the closest I've found to my 31...Ke7 is 30...Ke7 first mentioned by DhavalVyas back in October 5 2004.

I'm convinced by the way that 30...Ke7 also draws, although I find it easier to draw with 31...Ke7.

On October 6 2004 you said <Fritz's other line, 30.g3 ♔e7 , does look like an interesting alternative. White probably replies 31. ♔e2 ♔d6 32. ♔f3 ♔d5 33. a4 , with problems similar to the actual game, the difference being that Black doesn't trade the h-pawn for the g-pawn and instead uses this time to activate his king sooner.

I'm not sure whether this is enough to draw. For example, play might continue 33...f5 34. e4+ fe+ 35. ♔g2 ♗xg3 36. ♔xg3 a6 37. ♔g4 ab 38. ab ♔e6 39. ♔g5 and it looks like with careful play White can gradually outflank Black.>

In your line instead of 32...Kd5 black should play 32...Kc5 and it's a simple draw. If 33.a4?? then Kb4 and black wins these two pawns and the game. If 33.Kg2 then Bxg3 34.fxg3 Kxb5 for a basic drawn endgame:


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<AylerKupp> I think 30...h5 is fine. After reinforcing it with e5 and then g6 and with king blocking the bishop's entrance behind this formation there's nothing white can do to break it.


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As for engines I primarily used Komodo 9.3 and Stockfish 7, with 6 piece syzygy tablebases installed.

I really didn't need to go deep with any move, it just made sense to me. As long as these engines aren't saying something like +250 (Komodo 9.3) or +123.xx (Stockfish) it means that the engine hasn't found the mate yet. Trade off white's kingside pawns, block white's queenside pawns, and protect your queenside pawns with your king. There's nothing white can do to break in.

Jan-04-16  beatgiant: <Dionyseus>
I believe your move was posted by <RandomVisitor> a few years ago but don't remember if it was refuted.

When I was posting over 10 years ago, I analyzed it by hand, because in those days the engines I had were still not reliably better than myself in many endgame situations. So I'm not surprised you found improvements, but I'll have to check again if time permits.

The move I'm most suspicious of in your line is Kxg3. Is there some important tactical reason White has to move his king offside while promoting Black's h-pawn to a passer, instead of the more obvious fxg3 usually given for White in these lines?

Jan-04-16  Dionyseus: <beatgiant> <The move I'm most suspicious of in your line is Kxg3. Is there some important tactical reason White has to move his king offside while promoting Black's h-pawn to a passer, instead of the more obvious fxg3 usually given for White in these lines? >

Makes no difference really. After 31...Ke7 32.Kf3 Kd6 33.Kg2 Bxg3 34.fxg3 black simply goes 34...Kc5 and white's queenside pawns are dead just like in the 34.Kxg3 line:


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Jan-04-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  diceman: <Dionyseus: Here's the draw and I found it rather easily. 31...Ke7! instead of Fischer's 31...h4. A possible continuation:>

What's hilarious about this
(if shown to be true)
is, dropping the bishop wasn't the problem.

..trying to "save" it was. :)

Jan-04-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <<diceman> What's hilarious about this (if shown to be true) is, dropping the bishop wasn't the problem. ..trying to "save" it was. :)>

I agree. But consider the circumstances. I think that Fischer was trying for a win right off the bat to establish his superiority over Spassky, notwithstanding those who think that this was all a psychological ploy to show Spassky that he could draw at any time with the Black pieces. If the latter is true, then Fischer miscalculated his drawing chances as the game's progress showed.

Now, if Fischer was not trying to win, then 29...Bxh2 makes no sense to me. Why enter into a difficult defense when the position after 29.b5 was probably an easy draw? I think that Fischer just miscalculated and, if <Dionyseus>'s analysis turns out to be correct, then it's understandable that upon realizing his miscalculation he would attempt to save the bishop instead of possibly playing the objectively best move under the circumstances. But, as usual, we will never really know. All we can do is play the "what if" game.

Jan-04-16  beatgiant: <Dionyseus>
Well I don't have time for an in-depth reply now, but White also has to consolidate the queenside first, most likely with the b6 move you suggested. And that should take precedence over Kf3-Kg2 as Black's bishop is not going anywhere.
Jan-04-16  ughaibu: Dionyseus: I'm curious, do you still claim that Topalov did not refuse to play the UEP match?
Jan-04-16  Dionyseus: <beatgiant> <Well I don't have time for an in-depth reply now, but White also has to consolidate the queenside first, most likely with the b6 move you suggested. And that should take precedence over Kf3-Kg2 as Black's bishop is not going anywhere.>

31...Ke7 32.Kf3 Kd6 <33.b6> axb6 34.Kg2 Bxg3 35.fxg3


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white can't make any progress, simple draw.

<ughaibu> I don't even remember what uep is nor am I interested unless it has something to do with computer chess or correspondence chess.

Jan-04-16  beatgiant: <Dionyseus> UEP = Universal Event Promotion, who offered a Kramnik-Topalov unification match back in the days when the world title was split.

<white can't make any progress, simple draw> No need for you to post lines until I do of course, but clearly if Black remains passive in the position above, White would win.

Jan-04-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  RookFile: I guess the diagram might need some more investigation. White tries something like Kf3 and bishop to d2, b4, and then f8. The whole ballgame depends on whether the white king can break into the the black position without giving up the f and g pawns. (The a pawn almost doesn't count because the a8 square is the wrong color for his bishop).
Jan-04-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  Sally Simpson: Hi Alyerkupp,

" But, as usual, we will never really know. All we can do is play the "what if" game."

At the 1992 match conference a journalist asked Bobby if he was trying to win the game with Bxh2. Bobby said 'Yeah'.

After the game Bobby told Rueben Fine that he miscalculated thinking here.


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32...h3 was OK then noticing that 33.Kg4 traps the Bishop.

One bright sunny day a computer may find a clear drawing line. Bobby couldn't even with an adjournment. In the end that is all that matters.

Jan-05-16  Dionyseus: <Rookfile> < I guess the diagram might need some more investigation. White tries something like Kf3 and bishop to d2, b4, and then f8. The whole ballgame depends on whether the white king can break into the the black position without giving up the f and g pawns. (The a pawn almost doesn't count because the a8 square is the wrong color for his bishop). >

31...Ke7 32.Kf3 Kd6 <33.b6> axb6 34.Kg2 Bxg3 35.fxg3 Ke5 <36.Kf3> Kd5 <37.Bd2> e5 <38.Bb4> Ke6 <39.Bf8> Kf7


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white can't make any progress.

For example: 40. Bd6 Ke6 41. Bc7 b5 42. Ke4 Kd7 43. Ba5 Ke6 44. Bb6 g6 45. Bd8 g5 46. Kf3 Kf7 47. Ba5 Ke6 48. Bb6 Kd5 49. e4+ Kd6 50. Bd8 Ke6 51. Ke3 b4 52. axb4 b5


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Now white king cannot penetrate, and all black has to do is protect the f6 pawn.

Jan-05-16  ughaibu: Dionyseus: as Beatgiant says, UEP were the German company who were willing to run a Kramnik vs. Topalov match. At the time (late 2005), when asked if Topalov had refused to play in that match, you replied "no". My above question can be interpreted to mean, 'if asked whether Topalov refused to play that match, would you still answer "no"?'

<nor am I interested unless it has something to do with computer chess or correspondence chess>

Does this indicate that you would now refuse to answer?

Jan-05-16  Dionyseus: <ughaibu> <Does this indicate that you would now refuse to answer? >

It indicates that the subject matter no longer interests me probably because I don't consider Topalov or Kramnik to be anywhere near as good as Carlsen, Kasparov, Karpov, Fischer, etc. I don't even remember the event.

Jan-05-16  ughaibu: If you don't remember the event and answered "no" previously, then I assume that your answer, if you were interested enough to give one, would still be "no". After all, whether or not Topalov refused to play is a matter of historical fact, and as the fact was established before your earlier answer, the fact hasn't changed.
Jan-26-16  chessarkitek: can anyone tell, i think Fischer has won this game at move 42.kh5 Fischer can counter attack with the g7-g5 with the e6 unstoppable
Jan-26-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <chessarkitek> From the position after 42.Kh5


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The FinalGen tablebase generator indicates that White wins regardless of Black's move:

42...Kf5 White wins in 22
42...Ke5 White wins in 18
42...Ke4 White wins in 18
42...Kf3 White wins in 17
42...g5 White wins in 16
42...e5 White wins in 16
42...a5 White wins in 16
42...Kg3 White wins in 14
42...g6+ White wins in 14

Here "wins" means that a White pawn can promote in <nn> moves, and White can then force a win.

Jan-26-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  diceman: <Sally Simpson:

One bright sunny day a computer may find a clear drawing line. Bobby couldn't even with an adjournment. In the end that is all that matters.>

The question would be: Did it exist at
adjournment?

The Dionyseus: line seems to indicate no. (because Fischer tried to "save" the Bishop before adjournment)

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