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Boris Spassky vs Robert James Fischer
Fischer - Spassky World Championship Match (1972)  ·  Nimzo-Indian Defense: Normal Variation. Gligoric System Bernstein Defense (E56)  ·  1-0
To move:
Last move:

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Given 49 times; par: 111 [what's this?]

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Boris Spassky vs Robert James Fischer (1972)

Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 36 OF 36 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Apr-22-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  jnpope: <a. Click on the first line to select it.

b. Click on "Append Analysis" as many times as needed to display all the moves from Line 1 in the Analysis Area.>

Well, when I try that I get a dialog box that says "The analysis is not available for this position." However, I can just double-click into a line and keep drilling around.

I'm not sure what the best method is for extracting lines. Perhaps I just need to "copy" the drawing lines into a ChessBase game-tree and then export that to text at some point.

Apr-22-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  jnpope: Interesting results. Most of the "Unsolved" lines appear to be 6-piece Nalimov Tablebase draws. Apparently FinalGen gets confused after promotions to queens and just calls it unsolved.

Well, after drilling into various lines and checking the unsolved ones against the Nalimov Tablebase, I'm now reasonably convinced that Fischer could have drawn the game after 35.Kxg3 which indirectly indicates 29...Bxh2 was actually sound (since the position was probably a draw to begin with). Bobby blew it with 39...f5 (as demonstrated earlier).

Honestly, I'm rather surprised by the results, but I'm confident that anyone armed with this FinalGen Tablebase and a 6-piece Nalimov Tablebase could "easily" draw the ending after 35.Kxg3 against best play by White.

Apr-22-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tiggler: <jnpope>: <...I'm now reasonably convinced that Fischer could have drawn the game after 35.Kxg3 which indirectly indicates 29...Bxh2 was actually sound (since the position was probably a draw to begin with). Bobby blew it with 39...f5 (as demonstrated earlier).>

In am reasonably convinced too, but to say that 39...f5 was the losing move, one has to show beyond doubt that another move would draw from that position. I think 39...e5 draws, and that it may not be the only possibility, but I don't think anyone proved it yet. <RandomVisitor> got inconclusive results from FinalGen in normal mode, after 39.b6.

One move that <RV>'s analysis showed as "white wins or draw" was 39...a5. I am fairly sure that loses, after pawn promotions.

Apr-23-16  QueensideCastler: Wonderful news indeed!

<jnpope> just a question: did you compress the storage folder?

"Compressing your working folder is strongly recommended. This can help you save a lot of time and disk space.

To compress the working folder, right-click the folder you want to compress, and then click Properties. On the General tab, click Advanced. Select the Compress contents to save disk space check box, and then click OK."

Is the fortress formation the reason FinalGen display "Unsolved" in case the kingside pawns is traded off and the king runs to the c8 corner?

Apr-23-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  jnpope: <Is the fortress formation the reason FinalGen display "Unsolved" in case the kingside pawns is traded off and the king runs to the c8 corner?>

In the 35...Kd6 lines that is one of the possible drawing techniques. Other lines (where black ends up with double e-pawns) tend to be king-dances where black manages to hold both pawns and white has to blockade and never gets a chance to go after the black queenside pawns.

The 35...g6 lines are mostly black forcing queenside pawns down the field. The bishop getting overworked and outgunned while black and white both race to promote (all of which FinalGen claims are Unsolved, the six-piece tablebase shows they are draws).

Apr-23-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  jnpope: <In am reasonably convinced too, but to say that 39...f5 was the losing move, one has to show beyond doubt that another move would draw from that position. I think 39...e5 draws, and that it may not be the only possibility, but I don't think anyone proved it yet.>

I think I should be able to prove it. The hard part is filtering out the threefold repetitions which FinalGen doesn't "force" into the draw bucket (part of the inconclusive result set). The tricky lines are those that don't resolve into a 6-piece tablebase solution for a long sequence of moves. But based upon what I've been able to do with the FinalGen solutions, a 6-piece tablebase and a ChessBase "tree" I think I can generate a proof given enough time.

Apr-23-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  jnpope: <<jnpope> just a question: did you compress the storage folder?>

Nope. I didn't worry about compression when I started. Not sure what type of speed improvement I would have gotten either... what I really needed was a 6+TB SSD drive.

Apr-23-16  QueensideCastler: I recommend verify the results with 7-Men Lomonosov EGTBs, - it's free to use for android.

http://tinyurl.com/zyqtoz9

Also i'm looking forward for the Chessbase viewable tree as mentioned.

Apr-23-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  RandomVisitor: Consider this line from the position after 39.b6


click for larger view

Komodo-9.42-64bit:

+3.50 39. ... a5 40.Kg4 g6 41.Be7 f5+ 42.Kg5 Kxe3 43.Kf6 f4 44.Kxe6 f3 45.Bc5+ Ke4 46.Kd6 g5 47.Kc7 g4 48.Kxb7 g3 49.Kc6 f2 50.b7 f1Q 51.b8Q


click for larger view

Final gen just throws its hands up and says "I don't know". As long as white can force a position like this one, FinalGen will not resolve positions such as after 39.b6.

Apr-23-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tiggler: <RandomVisitor> The position in your last diagram is one that I had on my analysis board a while ago. My conclusion: white wins.

Here is one continuation:

51. ...g2
52.Qg8 Kf5
53.Qd5+ Kf4
54.Qd4+ Kg5
55.Qe5+ Kg6
56.Bd4 Kf7
57.Qd5+ Kf8
58.Kb6 Qb1+
59.Kxa5 Qg6
60.Bc5+ Kg7
61.Qd7+ Kg8
62.Qd8+ Kh7
63.Qe7+ Kh6
64.Be3+ Kh5
65.Qe5+ Kg4
66.Qf4+ Kh3
67.Bf2 g1Q
68.Qe3+ Kg4
69.Bxg1 (+M22 t.b.)


click for larger view

Apr-23-16  QueensideCastler: <jnpope> I can verify 7-piece positions if you can send few FEN positions from that FinalGen tree.

Positions that need further inspections.

Huge difference between 6-Men Nalimov and 7-Men Lomonosov respectively.

Apr-23-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <<RandomVisitor>Final gen just throws its hands up and says "I don't know".>

True. Once FinaGen's requirement of only one piece (other than kings) per side is violated, i.e. by promotion, then it considers the position "Unsolved". I'm actualy surprised that it didn't throw up its hands after 50...f1Q and continued to 51.b8Q.

Apr-24-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tiggler: <AylerKupp>:<I'm actualy surprised that it didn't throw up its hands after 50...f1Q and continued to 51.b8Q.>

Perhaps because there was only one piece per side until 51.b8Q?

Apr-24-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  jnpope: <QueensideCastler: I recommend verify the results with 7-Men Lomonosov EGTBs>

Excellent. Installed onto my Android. That should help.

Apr-24-16  QueensideCastler: Glad i could help. 1 more additional piece (over nalimov) should add tremendous more insight/assistance to verify FinalGen tree.
Apr-24-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  cro777: <RandomVisitor: Consider this line from the position after 39.b6:>

39. ... a5 40.Kg4 g6 41.Be7 f5+ 42.Kg5 Kxe3 43.Kf6 f4 44.Kxe6 f3 45.Bc5+ Ke4 46.Kd6 g5 47.Kc7 g4 48.Kxb7 g3 49.Kc6 f2 50.b7 f1Q 51.b8Q


click for larger view

The line may continue:

51...g2 52.Qg8 Kf5 53.Qd5+ Kf4 54.Qd4+ Kg3 55.Kb6


click for larger view

And White will capture the a5-pawn reaching a theoretically won position.

For example, 55...Kh3 56.Qe3+ Kh4 57.Kxa5


click for larger view

White mates in 29 (Lomonosov tablebases).

Apr-25-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tiggler: <cro777> do you agree that black is lost after 39...a5?
Apr-25-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  cro777: <Tiggler> I would agree that Black is lost after 39...a5.
Apr-25-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  RandomVisitor: After 39.b6, black's plan should be to exchange off the white pawn by advancing his own set, keeping his king between the white king and c8. After black forces the exchange, he just abandons his remaining kingside pawn(s) and marches his king to c8 and his fortress. Draw.


click for larger view

Komodo-9.42-64bit: syzygy-6

+4.29/60 39...g6 40.a5 e5 41.Kg4 Kd5 42.Ba3 Ke6 43.Kg3 Kd7 44.Kf3 Ke6 45.Bf8 Kf5 46.e4+ Ke6 47.Kg2 f5 48.Kf2 g5 49.Bb4 fxe4 50.Ke3 g4 51.Be1 Kd7 52.Kxe4 Kd8 53.Bh4+ Kd7 54.Kxe5 g3 55.Bxg3 Kd8 56.Bh4+ Kd7 57.Kf6 Kd8 58.Be1 Kc8 59.Ke7 Kb8 60.Kd7 Ka8 61.Kd6 Kb8 62.Bh4 Kc8 63.Bf2 Kb8 64.Kd5 Ka8 65.Ke4 Kb8 66.Bg3+ Ka8 67.Ke5 Kb8 68.Be1 Ka8 69.Bf2 Kb8 70.Bc5 Kc8

Apr-25-16  QueensideCastler: Apparently it appears the white bishop is worth slightly less as a result of wrong a8 color in addition c8 safe square for the black king. Black centralized king shall compensate for the remaining half a pawn, - e.g. let say subtract 0.5 points to the base value of the bishop 3.0 or (3.25) 2.5 and 2.75 points respectively.

The white bishop is not at its peak value because black have the fortress idea at disposal as an escape route.


click for larger view

Apr-25-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tiggler: <QueensideCastler: Apparently it appears the white bishop is worth slightly less as a result of wrong a8 color in addition c8 safe square for the black king. Black centralized king shall compensate for the remaining half a pawn, - e.g. let say subtract 0.5 points to the base value of the bishop 3.0 or (3.25) 2.5 and 2.75 points respectively.>

Apparently it appears that seemingly this is the sentence of the month - e.g., let's say, respectively!

Apr-26-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  cro777: The critical moment of the game.

In the position after 39.b6 Fischer missed the last chance to hold the draw:


click for larger view

39f5? was the decisive mistake.

The drawing method was explained above by <RandomVisitor>: with the kingside pawns off the board, the following position is drawn: White - King any, Bishop any, Pawns a5 and b6; Black Kc8, Pawns a6 and b7.

The following drawing line has been usually suggested:

39e5 40.Kg4 g6


click for larger view

Here, the following lines have been analysed:

41.a5 leads, by transposition, to the line suggested by <RandomVisitor> (39g6 40.a5 e5 41.Kg4)

41.Be7 Kxe3 42.Bxf6 Kd4

Apr-26-16  QueensideCastler: <jnpope> is your <tree> soon verified?
Apr-26-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  jnpope: <<jnpope> is your <tree> soon verified?>

Unknown. There are still too many active branches. I'll keep you posted. This should end up being a proof by exhaustion (of the FinalGen unresolved lines). Between Rybka 4.1 x64, the FinalGen tablebase and the Lomonosov EGTB this should eventually get "solved".

The ChessBase tree is only the unresolved lines in FinalGen. All definitive wins and draws are truncated with a note; remaining best candidate lines via Rybka eval are bubbled to the top and then played out until they merge to definitive FinalGen positions or hit 7 pieces for an EGTB resolution, otherwise Rybka keeps making best line suggestions, etc.

Sort of tedious, but fascinating in a way...

Apr-26-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  jnpope: Well, a proof of a draw will be by exhaustion of the FinalGen unresolved lines. All it takes is a single forcing line for White to demonstrate the counter...
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