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|Sep-06-07|| ||zb2cr: Put me down with the 46. e6 crowd. After 46. ... Qe8 I thought I saw something. Oh well.|
|Sep-06-07|| ||psmith: Apologies for incorrect numbering in my earlier posts. In the line 46. Qd6+ Kg8 47. e6! <sagahelten>s analysis above is a perfect example of what will happen after 47...fxe6. Analysis with Fritz 5.32 confirms that Black is lost in all lines. After 47...fxe6 then either 48. Bxe6+ or 48. Qxe6+ leads to positions in which Black can only avoid a quick mate by sacrificing his Queen for the White Bishop. Other defenses are no better since White will take away Black's flight squares (f8, e7) by playing e7 himself (so that, for example, after 46. Qd6+ Kg8 47. e6! Bf6 48. e7 Bxe7 49. Qh6 the defense Qe8 no longer works as the e7 flight square is blocked, and 50. Qh7+ Kf8 51. Qh8 is mate.|
|Sep-06-07|| ||MiCrooks: The Queen had to go to a8 to protect the weak a pawn.|
|Sep-06-07|| ||ConstantImprovement: Possible first moves seem to be 46. Bg6 and 46. e6, but 46. ... g6: 47. e6 Qe8 and 46. ... Qe8 right away block that.
Qd6 appears promising.
I. 46. ... Ke8 47. Bd7+ Kd8 48. Be6+ Ke8 49. Qd7+ Kf8 50. Qf7#
II. 46. ... Kg7 47. Qf6+
1. 47. ... Kf8 48. Qh8 Ke7 49. Qa8:
2. 47. ... Kg8 48. Qh6 (Editing comment after looking at the game and seeing the probable solution 48. e6 being mentioned: I saw that, too, but it seemed to be too fuzzy for a clear solution, 48. Qh6 appeared much more thematic and, furthermore, appealing; it is important to acknowledge when a line does not work [Like 48. Qh6 here] and then switch to the other possibility, analyzing it thoroughly) Qe8 (This seems to be the only move to prevent the sequence 49. Bg7+ Kh8 50. Bg6+ Kg8 51. Qh7+ Kf8 52. Qf7:# right away; Qa6 with the idea of Qc4 guarding f7 runs into Bd3)
a. 49. Bg7+ Kh8 50. Bg6+ Kg8 51. e6
a1. 51. ... Bg7 52. f7: Qf7: 53. Qg7:+ Kg7: 54. e8:Q
a2. 51. ... Qe6: 52. Bh7+ Kh8 53. Qh5 (idea Bf5+ winning the queen)Kg7 with rather a draw
b. 49. e6
b1. 49. ... e6: 50. Be6:+ Qe6: 51. Qe6: winning the queen
b2. 49. ... f6 50. Bh7+ Kh8 51. Bg6+ winning the queen
b3. 49. ... Anything besides Bg7 50. Bh7+ Kh8 51. Bg6+ Kg8 52. f7:+ winning the queen
b4. 49. ... Bg7 seems to be difficult to meet:
b41. 50. Bh7+ Kf8
b42. 50. Qh7+ Kf8
b43. 50. f7:+ Qf7: (50. ... Kf7: 51. Bg6+ Kf8 52. Qg7:+ Kg7: 53. Be8: with a Bishop up and winning) and 51. Qh3 threatening 52. Be6 is not fast enough.
|Sep-06-07|| ||YouRang: I didn't get it. I figured that the idea was to use mate threats to finagle a queen-winning skewer. After looking at the answer, I decided it was overly difficult, even for a Thursday. It doesn't look difficult only because black played poorly.|
I looked at 46. Qd6+ and fully expected 46...Qg8 (46...Qg7? allows my queen to get to queenside with tempo.)
If 46...Qg8, white cannot check effectively, so we must find the right quiet move, and in the meantime, black get get his queen or bishop in play, which complicates things immensely.
I looked at the 47. e6 line a bit. It does create some nice threats, but it also opens the diagonal for the black bishop. If 47...fxe6, white looks strong, but the number of lines to consider is daunting and the forced mate is still a ways off.
Anyway, IMO it's very difficult to see clearly all the way to the end if black plays well.
|Sep-06-07|| ||jaybugg13: Is the correct continuation 50...Ke8 51. Bd7+ Kd8 52.Bxc6+ Kc8 53.Qf8+ Kc7 winning the queen? Someone might have mentioned this but I didn't see this line anywhere. Could be wrong too, but it all seems pretty forced.|
|Sep-06-07|| ||ConstantImprovement: To Mr. ellhares:
If your solutions come as fast to you as your comments are confident, then you have to be a very high rated player, although I don't have you over 2300 in my estimation. But it is nice anyhow.
|Sep-06-07|| ||YouRang: <sagahelten: 46...Kg8 is probably the best black answer. It is met by: 47. e6 fxe6 48. Qxe6+ Kf8 49. Bg6 Qa6+ 50. Kf2 Kg7 51. Qf7+ Kh6 52. Bc2 c5 53. Kg3! Be5+ Kh3 and black is lost, since he'll have to give his queen to avoid the immediate mating net (it threatens Qh7 Kg5 Qh4#). If white doesn't play Kg3!, white only has a considerate advantage.>|
Very nice analysis, but if this represents best play (and I think it might), then it confirms my suspicion that this puzzle is way over the normal Thursday diffculty level. :-\
|Sep-06-07|| ||newton296: I found Q d6+ pretty quick but Had a hard time seeing what to do if black played Kg8 . now what ? |
I figured e6 was strong and saw I could force win of Q at a8 if accepted so then i thought ...Bf6 defense for black is better. now what for white ? this is were my board vision failed me. E7! is the threat as white now threatens to promote after Qd8 +
man , my board vision fails again only 4 moves in .
for what it's worth , black could have played tougher with ...Kg8 at least he would have made white look 4 moves deep to come up with e6 e7 Qd8+ idea .
|Sep-06-07|| ||newton296: note ; black can play Bxe7 to avoid the promotion if he feels like prolonging the suffering. |
black is obviously since the best he's got is to give up a B for a pawn and White's attack is still raging.
|Sep-06-07|| ||newton296: I think this one is tricky ,
I'm find it interesting that there are so many post that say I got it easy and then give Qd6+ ...Kg8 Qh6 as winning when it's actually a draw after ...Qe8 !
|Sep-06-07|| ||dazone3: This is a highly instructive puzzle. The game continuation is fun, but the real meat and potatoes come if black plays 46. ... Kg8, as noted by many kibitzers. After 47. e6, black is forced to capture, or lose the bishop for the potential queen and be utterly lost. After 47. ... fxe6 48. Qxe6+, the Queen and Bishop are alone with the opposing King (barring the black Bishop's nagging influence). Analyzing to mate in all lines from this point, in your head, is very instructive. All it takes is one little quirk (the pawn on e3!) and it's forced mate (or loss of the queen for the pedants). The mate after
48. Qxe6+ Kh8
49. Qh6+ Kg8
50. Be6# is especially pretty.
After this bit of analysis, I think I can answer why Bannik, to the dismay of the chessgames community, didn't play the objectively longer Kg8, rather than Kg7. The answer is simple: he saw that after e6 he'd have to capture the pawn, and -knew-, without even calculating, that such a position was mate. He probably didn't give Kg8 very much thought.
And that's why it's so instructive. Now we no longer need to give such positions much thought!
|Sep-06-07|| ||dazone3: By the way, unless the neat mate I mentioned above is already named, I propose it be called a "Quarantine Mate". No pieces are touching the King, and all checking/restraining is done from a distance!|
|Sep-06-07|| ||xKinGKooLx: 4/4. Going well so far. Actually, I saw 46. e6, calculated it for a few minutes, and I am sure it works, so I'm certain this puzzle has two solutions. 46. e6, in my opinion, is so much simpler and easier to find than 46. Qd6+. I think Flohr picked 46. Qd6+ because it probably requires less thought and calculation, and he might have been in time trouble. Anyway, I'm looking forward to Friday. :).|
|Sep-06-07|| ||xKinGKooLx: OK, it turns out I was completely and utterly wrong. I saw, about a minute after writing my last post, that 46. e6 does NOT work, because of 46. ...Qe8. Damn! Someday I'll get 7/7 for the week, but not this week. Sigh...|
|Sep-06-07|| ||Takya Kotov: I don't really like this as a puzzle because the first move is fairly obvious and any competent player with white would find some way of winning it in the end, even if they did not choose the most accurate or elegant moves. This is basically because black is helpless due to his hopelessly placed queen & bishop. White would have to commit a criminal waste of time (two or three moves) for black to have a chance of getting back into it.|
|Sep-06-07|| ||playground player: Qe6+ jumped right out at me, but all I wound up doing was playing ring-around-the-rosey with the Black King around the Black Pawn at f7. So I gave up on it and tried Bc8, with an attack on the Black Queen. Eventually it led to a winning position.|
|Sep-06-07|| ||fm avari viraf: After having a quick glance, White has a distinctive advantage. Hence, 46.Qd6+ looks more to the point ...Kg8 [ not ...Ke8? since 47.Bd7+ Kd8 48.Be6+ & mates in 2. Again, the text move ...Kg7 loses ] Now, neither 47.Qh6 nor 47.e6 could win since ...Qe8 would spoil White's plans.|
|Sep-06-07|| ||Fezzik: This position helps to clarify what we mean when we discuss combinations and sacrifices.|
I don't really consider Flohr's plan a combination, and it certainly is not a sacrifice. I can see why it might be called a combination because all of black's moves can be calculated.
This is more of a maneuver which does not involve a temporary investment. White simply exploits the weak position of Black's pieces in the most effective manner.
<It's certainly instructive how Flohr was able to demonstrate the general principle that in major piece & opposite colored Bishop endings, the side with the initiative is usually a piece up.>
White's Queen maneuver is important to remember because similar "triangulations of the Queen" are possible far more often than most people realise.
|Sep-06-07|| ||YouRang: <fm avari viraf><Hence, 46.Qd6+ looks more to the point ...Kg8>...<Now, neither 47.Qh6 nor 47.e6 could win since ...Qe8 would spoil White's plans.>|
Actually, after 46. Qd6+ Kg8 47. e6, white's plans are not spoiled by 47...Qe8, since 48. e7 wins (threatening Qd8).
|Sep-06-07|| ||patzer2: For today's puzzle solution, Fhlor plays four consecutive Queen deflections, starting with 46. Qd6+!, to force the helpless Black King into the final lost position.|
However, the most interesting and difficult move in this sequence is one not played -- specifically 46...Kg8!?
After 46...Kg8!? the winning reply is 47. e6!!, as pointed out in <saqahelten>'s analysis (see post on page 1 of kibitzing for this game).
If in response to 46...Kg8 White plays the tempting 47. Qh6 , then 47...Qe8 puts up stiff resistance after 48. e6 Bg7 to = (when Black appears to have enough to hold the position and keep the outcome in doubt).
|Sep-06-07|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: <ConstantImprovement: To Mr. ellhares:
If your solutions come as fast to you as your comments are confident, then you have to be a very high rated player>|
You might be correct. Here's my guess for the identity of User: ellhares:
|Sep-06-07|| ||xeneizexxx: <sagahelten: 46...Kg8 is probably the best black answer. It is met by: 47. e6 fxe6 48. Qxe6+ Kf8 49. Bg6 Qa6+ 50. Kf2 Kg7 51. Qf7+ Kh6 52. Bc2 c5 53. Kg3! Be5+ Kh3 and black is lost>|
In <sagahelten> line what happen if <50...b5> instead. A sample line could be: 51.Qxc6 Qe7 52.Kf3 Qf6+ 53.Qxf6 Bxf6 54.Bd3 Bb2 55.Bxb5 Bxa3. This looks like a draw.
|Sep-07-07|| ||goldfarbdj: <jaybugg13: Is the correct continuation 50...Ke8 51. Bd7+ Kd8 52.Bxc6+ Kc8 53.Qf8+ Kc7 winning the queen?> |
No -- see my comment on the first page. White plays 52. ♗e6+, since he'd rather win the king than the queen.
|Sep-07-07|| ||kevin86: I missed this one. It takes a delightful bit of chessboard magic to win this one as white has the weaker pawns and BOOC.|
The way to do it to ignore all pieces except the white queen and bishop-and the target-the black king.
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