< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|Mar-16-04|| ||karlzen: Apology accepted ughaibu. Of course I agree with you that computers have their flaws, just as we do. Working together is so much better than working against each other. Anyway, I think we're way off topic, discussion should concern the game at hand. |
|Mar-16-04|| ||drukenknight: chessical: It is amusing that when we want to demonstrate a win, that our side is capable of making all kinds of sacrifices, crazy moves, etc. but the other side must always grab material or whatever. Yesterday, black wanted to save his Q. Today, in your line, black grabs material w/ Nxd5 and allows the Q to penetrate. Why is he grabbing material there? it looks line your line should continue: |
32. Qg6 Kd8
33. Qf7 Be7
34. Ng8 Nxd5
|Mar-16-04|| ||ughaibu: Karlzen: Thanks. |
|Mar-16-04|| ||drukenknight: group hug everybody. |
|Mar-17-04|| ||karlzen: You're welcome ughaibu.
<drunkenknight>, it's a dead lost position anyway. 34.Nf5! is another strong possibility, but I find it more amusing to use your move 34.Ng8 as you answered with grabbing some material! :) After 34...Ng8 Nxd5 (there is nothing better of course) 35.Qxd5 black has no chance of surviving. Remember, Kotov and Geller were among the very finest GMs.
|Mar-17-04|| ||drukenknight: SOrry kartz. I was doing this one in my sleep and I didnt realize that I had moved the B making the Q block unnecessary, try that w/ Be6 instead so it goes: |
27. Rh3 Bc8
28. Qh7+ Kf7
29. Nh6+ Ke8
30. Re3+ Be6
|Mar-18-04|| ||karlzen: Yes, <drunkenknight>, that's a better try. A quick refutation: 31.dxe6 Nd5 32.Nf5 c3 (32...Nxe3 33.Bxf6! Nxf5 34.Qg6+) 33.Qh5+! Kd8 (33...g6 would allow Qxg6+ followed by e7+ and Qg8+ picking up the knight on d5 with a further threat to the e7-bishop) 34.Qh8 Ke8 35.Rh3! intending Qxf8+ followed by Rh8#. Also good is 32.Qg6+ Kd8 33.Nf7+ Kc8 (Ke7 33.Nxg5) 34.Qe4! (mutual threats: e6-e7 and Qxd5 and even x-ray vision touching the a8-rook) 34...Qc5 35.Ba3 Qb5 36.e7! Bxe7 37.Bxd6! but white will have to fight even more for the win in this variation: 37...Ra7 38.Qe6+ Rd7 39.Bxe7 Kb7 40.Re1 Nxe7 41.Nd6+ Rxd6 42.Qxd6 Nc8 43.Qf8 Qd7 44.Rb1+ Kc7 45.a4! (with the idea of a4-a5 taking the b6-square for the black knight, thus the c4-pawn (or g7) will fall - Qg8! for example) and white must win. |
|Mar-18-04|| ||drukenknight: its a little confusing to follow the alternate lines, try to give the main line next time. I realize that the other guy will vary from it often enough, but you just have to wait for the other player to post it...|
I'll get back to this in a little bit.
|Mar-19-04|| ||karlzen: Lazy me or lazy you, I choose lazy me! :) OK, I'll try to tidy my posts up a bit, perhaps. |
|Mar-19-04|| ||drukenknight: black looks cooked in that last line, so now we go all the way back to move 24 to save this? hard to believe. |
|Mar-19-04|| ||Chessical: 25...Rxe1+ does not seem to help Kotov, so going back further, how about 22...Rh4 and if 23.g3 then 23..Rh6 |
This seems to dampen down White's K-side attack quite effectively.
|Mar-20-04|| ||karlzen: <chessical>, I think Rh4!? is an interesting way of saving the game. However, it looks a bit "computerish" (not saying you used a computer to find it) because it takes real courage to put the rook in such a nasty situation. I don't have enough time to analyse this exhaustively right now, but I think black has to give up his queen for some compensation in a couple of lines. My analysis: 22...Rh4!? 23.Nf5! Rf4 (23...h6 24.Bxg7!? Qd7! unclear - might be black's best shot; 23...Nd3 24.Qf3! Rf4 25.Qh5 h6 26.Bxg7!) 24.Qh5 h6 and now: |
25.Nxh6+!? (just trying the different sacs) 25...gxh6 26.Re3 Nxd5 27.Rg3 c3! 28.Ne6+ Kh7 29.Bxc3 Qxc3 30.Rxc3 fxe6 31.Rb3 Bc6 and black has three pieces for the queen which allows him to play on.
25.Nh3?! Rxf5 26.Qxf5 Nd3 27.g6 followed by Nxb2 and Bg7 looks good for black.
25.Re7!? Qxe7 26.Nxe7+ Bxe7 27.Nh3 Rh4 and after taking on d5 black will have rook, bishop and two good pawns for the queen.
25.Bxg7!! is probably best. It's not so hard to find this possibility, but to know whether or not it's actually good, is another thing. 25...Rxf5 (or Nxh6+ decides) 26.Qxh6 Bxg7 27.Qh7+ Kf8 28.Qxf5 Bxd5 29.Rab1 (29.a3 Bxa1) 29...Qc8 30.Qf4 Qc5 31.Re6!! and it looks very good. So perhaps black can't take on d5, but what then? 28...Kg8 to get rid of Ne6+ is an idea but then 29.Rac1 with the point of Rxc4 Qxc4 Qxf7+ looks good.
My result: 22...Rh4!? 23.Nf5 h6! 24.Bxg7! Qd7! is the variation to analyse further. Hope it's tidy enough drunkenknight! :)
|Mar-20-04|| ||Chessical: <Karlzen> In a game after 22...Rh4 23.Nf5 I would have played Rf4. |
In truth, I had not considered 23...h6!?, although 22...Rh4 23.Nf5 h6 24.Nxh4 (a plausible alternative to 24.Bxg7)hxg5 25.Nf5 Nd3 26.Re2 Bxd5 27.Rc2 Rb8 28.Bd4 still is rather pleasant for Black
I would be suprised if any program actually played 22...Rh4, it seems a "human" move as it decentralizes the R rather than remaining on the e-file. What does Crafty think?
|Mar-21-04|| ||karlzen: I agree with you <chessical> that black looks fine after 24.Nxh4 in the h6 variation. I made some analysis myself, soon I realised that the position with three hanging white pieces(!) and one for black, called for something extra. I gave my friend Fritz a go and together we came to the conclusion that white looks to be winning after Bxg7!: (by the way, you're right, the computer doesn't want to play Rh4 !) 24.Bxg7 Qd7 25.Ne6!! fxe6 26.dxe6 (this passed pawn will decide the game) 26...Qc6 (26...Qb5 27.Nxh4 Bxg7 28.Rb1! Qc5 29.Qg4 Nd3 30.Re3 Ne5 31.Qg3 Bc8 32.Nf5 Qc7 33.f4) 27.Nxh4 Bxg7 28.Qh5! Rf8 29.e7 Re8 30.Rab1 Nd3 (30...a5 31.Rbc1! c3 32.Qg6!) 31.Rxb7! Nxe1 32.Qg6! winning easily. |
Instead of 28..Rf8: 28...a5 29.Qf7+ Kh8 30.Re3 Qe8 31.Qxb7 Rb8! (31...Bxa1 32.Rg3 Bf6 33.Ng6+ Kg8 34.Ne5+ Bg5 35.Nd7! Kh8 36.Qe4 Qg8 37.Rxg5! hxg5 38.Nf6) 32.Qf7 Nc2 33.Rc1 Nxe3 34.fxe3 Qxf7 35.exf7 c3 and white is better, but is it enough to win?
Thus I had to find an improvement for white. Fritz didn't help for a start, but after giving it the first few moves it found a great resource for me. 30.a3 Nc2 (30...Nd3 31.Rab1 Rb8 32.e7 (32.Rxb7 might not be sufficient due to black's strong c-pawn) 32...Nxe1 33.Rxb7! Qxb7 34.e8=D+ Rxe8 35.Qxb7 and white must win. c- or d- will fall because of Nf5 and Qc6/8 etc.) 31.Rab1 Rb8 32.Qf5!! (simple stuff!) 32...Nd4 33.Qg6 with the mutual ideas of e6-e7-e8 and Nf5, there's nothing black can do about it.
28...Nd3 is black's last try to survive in the Rh4 complex as I see it. 29.Qf7+ Kh7 30.Rab1 Rb8 (30...Rf8 31.Qg6+ Kh8 32.e7 Re8 33.Rb6! with Nf5 to follow) 31.Qg6+ Kh8 32.Nf5 (a knight on the rim is not always dim!) 32...Rg8 33.Nxh6 .
29...Kh8 is no better: 30.Rab1 Rb8 31.Rxb7 Qxb7 32.e7! Nxe1 33.e8=Q+ Rxe8 34.Qxb7 and we arrive at the same position as 28...a5 29.Qf7+ Kh8 30.a3 Nd3. White is winning.
Still, I have yet to refute my original suggestion of 24...Rae8!. :)
|May-20-04|| ||ughaibu: Chessgames.com: Chessbase have this as correct and Geller vs Kotov, 1955 as incorrect. |
|May-20-04|| ||chessgames.com: <ughaibu> Please contact me at firstname.lastname@example.org, I can configure your account to be what we call a "mini admin" which will allow you to make some minor database fixes on your own. |
|Jan-31-06|| ||notyetagm: Geller was an unbelievably strong tactical attacking player.|
|Jan-27-07|| ||morphyvsfischer: um... Black has equal chances in the 24...Rae8! line; I doubt better because white still has the initiative, but black does at least chances. 14...cxd4 followed by Bd7 and Rac8 is the way to play it. 19...c4 was chosen for 20 a3 to be bet by 20...c3. 26...f6 27 Qg6 following with Nh6+, Nf7+, and Rh3 mates. This is a very good model on how to attack the same side castled king.|
|Mar-17-09|| ||notyetagm: 29 ?
click for larger view
29 e8xf8+! 1-0
click for larger view
29 ... g8xf8 <deflection: h8> 30 h6-h8#
click for larger view
Geller's 29 e8xf8+! is a great example of the <KING DEFLECTION> tactic.
The Black g8-king is <OVERLOADED>, having to keep the White e8-rook out of the f8-square and the White h6-queen out of the h8-square. The Black g8-king *cannot* defend these two squares, f8 and h8, by himself.
|Mar-17-09|| ||notyetagm: Incredibly well-played game by Geller.|
|Apr-14-10|| ||PhilFeeley: I can't view this game for some strange <CG.com> reason, but wouldn't 27. Rh3 be faster?|
|Oct-22-10|| ||igiene: 27. Rh3 seems wrong because Black can escape with 27..f6, 27.Bxg7 is far more stronger|
|Mar-08-11|| ||theodor: in this page, I didnt sow 26. ..;Nxd5. in my half an hour eval, I didnt found a win for white! any refutation?|
|Mar-08-11|| ||perfidious: <theodor> 26....Nxd5 is met by 27.Rh3 f6 28.Qg6 winning.|
|Mar-09-11|| ||theodor: <perfidious> thanks, I saw it(mate on h8 with the Rook).|
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