|Mar-23-04|| ||ughaibu: These two only played two short draws against each other throughout their careers, in consequence the number of decisive games was greater than the number of draws. That this is the case for such strong players makes the assertion that a draw is the natural result sound dubious. Nevertheless, some of the draws were very interesting. |
|Mar-23-04|| ||drukenknight: But using games between 2 players as some sort of empirical proof of the nature of chess is dubious. To prove chess is, in theory, a draw, you have to look at the other possibilities: its a win for white or a win for black. |
Then you have to reason logically from there...it has nothing to do w/ Geller/Korchnoi.
|Mar-23-04|| ||ughaibu: I'm not trying to prove anything, I'm disputing something. Before I start collecting figures for various players can we agree on the length of a short draw? Naturally it depends on the individual game but I dont initially want to play through every short draw to make an assessment of it's degree of fightingness, so, as a game is defined as a miniature if it's no longer than 25 moves I intend to take my figures from draws of at least 26 moves. I also dont see why it need be a win for a specific colour just because it's not a draw (I think Sneaky once posted an example of a game that's never drawn but the winner is unknown). |
|Mar-23-04|| ||drukenknight: there are only three possibilities, logically: a draw, white wins, or black wins.|
What the hell else is there? Just because you dont know the winner doesnt negate this. It still has to be either white wins or black wins. Agreed? What else? Red wins? blue wins?
|Mar-23-04|| ||ughaibu: Not at all, it could also be the 4th possibility, either black or white wins. |
|Mar-23-04|| ||drukenknight: you are playing semantic games. With that logic, I could argue a fifth possbility: "either white wins or black wins or a draw."|
And a sixth? Either white wins or a draw? And a seventh?
You are being ridiculous. "Either white wins or black wins" is merely restating possibility 2 and 3 as one. It is not fundamentally different than three possibilities already mentioned.
|Mar-23-04|| ||ughaibu: It's different for comparing figures and deciding which result is "natural". |
|Mar-24-04|| ||drukenknight: if you want to compile data or compare figures, that is fine. Dont argue it as a logical fourth possibility, because thats not logical. |
|Mar-24-04|| ||ughaibu: Why not? Doesn't your position rely on the assumption that there's always a best move? |
|Mar-24-04|| ||drukenknight: no. Is there a best first move? not in my opinion. Besides, if the game is supposed to end in a draw, why would there be a best move? There are probably multiple ways to accomplish that. |
|Jun-11-06|| ||ughaibu: There are also multiple ways for either side to win, if there isn't a best move, for every position, there is no determinant for the identity of the eventual winner.|
|May-13-11|| ||Sleeping kitten: I quite like 23. ♖c4!. Black cannot play 23... ♕xb6 24. ♖c8+ ♗f8 25. b3, so he recaptures only an exchange rather than a piece, and White keeps some advantage.|
|Feb-20-14|| ||zydeco: Beautiful queen sacrifice by Korchnoi. This game reminds me of Svidler-Grischuk, 2013 -- the side that sacrifices the queen has a large material advantage, but it's hard to coordinate all the pieces and hard to locate targets. |
Probably black should have played 21.....Ra7 winning two pieces for the rook and restoring material equality. Presumably he missed 23.Rc4!
A cute trick is 29.b3 Bxe3+!
White should be better in the final position except that his knight and light-squared bishop are doing nothing. Maybe he can keep playing with something like 38.Kf2 Qxb2 39.Bc3 Q moves 40.Bd4 and then Bf1 and Nc3 to get all the pieces working, but probably he didn't want to deal with the g and f pawns.
|Jan-01-18|| ||Grandma Sturleigh: A fascinating game where the players struggled with an unusual material balance, and the advantage changed hands several times.|
Stockfish claims a Black win with 27...♗xc3 28. bxc3 ♕xh4 followed by infiltrating with the queen to pick off White's pawns.
|Jan-01-18|| ||morfishine: Hilarious discussion between <drukenknight> & <ughaibu>. Especially funny is <ughaibu> took 2 years to post his final response. What, was he in a coma? lol|
|Jan-01-18|| ||perfidious: Had to temporarily remove <ughhaibu> from iggydumb to see the chatter--<drukenknight> is not the sharpest tool in the shed, so it was no surprise to see them talking past each other, as it were.|
|Jan-01-18|| ||ughaibu: <What, was he in a coma?>|
I'll try to remember.
|Jan-01-18|| ||whiteshark: <zydeco: <Probably black should have played 21.....Ra7 winning two pieces for the rook and restoring material equality.>>|
click for larger view
Black to move
1) -0.14 (28 ply) 21...Rb7 22.b3 Rxb6 23.Nxb6 Qxb6 24.bxa4 b4 25.Rb3 Qc5 26.Rb1 Qc3 27.Bb2 Qxe3+ 28.Rf2 Qb3 29.Re2 Bxb2 30.Rexb2 Qxa4 31.Bf3 Qb5 32.Kg2 Qd3 33.g4 Qc3 34.h4 Kg7 35.Kg3 f5 36.Kg2 fxg4
2) -0.08 (27 ply) 21...Be5 22.Rf1 Ra7 23.b3 Bxb3 24.Rxb3 a4 25.Rxb5 a3 26.Bxa3 Rxa3 27.Rbb1 Rxe3 28.Nc4 Bd4 29.Nxe3 Bxe3+ 30.Kh1 Qxa8 31.Rf6 Qd8 32.Rbf1 Qd7 33.Rxf7 Qxf7 34.Rxf7 Kxf7 35.Bh3 Kf6 36.Kg2 Bd4 37.Kf3 Be5 38.Be6 h5 39.Bg8 h4 40.gxh4 Bxh2 41.Kg2
3) +0.04 (27 ply) 21...Bc2 22.Rxa5 Bh6 23.Rf2 Bf5 24.Ra3 Qe8 25.Rxf5 b4 26.Nc7 Rxc7 27.Ra8 Rxc1+ 28.Rf1 Qxa8 29.Nxa8 Bxe3+ 30.Kh1 Rc8 31.Ra1 Bd4 32.Be4 b3 33.Bd3 f5 34.Ra3 Rb8 35.Ra6 Bxb2 36.Nb6 Bd4 37.Nc4 b2 38.Bb1 Kf7 39.Nxd6+ Ke7
1.0 minute analysis by Stockfish 8 v270317
|Jan-01-18|| ||ughaibu: Bonus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-8... With special new year wishes to puffied-arse.|
|Jan-01-18|| ||whiteshark: REQUEST ANALYSIS
click for larger view
White to move
1) +1.37 (27 ply) <23.Nc4!> Be5 24.Re4 f5 25.Rxe5 dxe5 26.Bf1 Bd1 27.d6 Qd8 28.Rd3 Bc2 29.Rd2 bxc4 30.Rxc2 Qxd6 31.Be2 h6 32.Rxc4 g5 33.b3 Qb6 34.Rc3 Kg7 35.Bd2 Kg6 36.Kg2 g4 37.Kf2 Kg7 38.Bc4
2) +0.91 (26 ply) 23.Rc4 bxc4 24.Nxa4 h5 25.Nc3 Be5 26.Bf3 h4 27.Kf2 Qc5 28.gxh4 Qb6 29.h5 gxh5 30.Bxh5 Qd8 31.Bf3 Qh4+ 32.Kf1 Qh3+ 33.Bg2 Qf5+ 34.Ke1 Qc2 35.Ne2 a4 36.e4 Bxb2 37.Bxb2 Qxb2 38.Rxa4 Qb1+ 39.Kf2
3) -0.44 (26 ply) 23.Rf1 Qxb6 24.b3 Bxb3 25.Rxb3 a4 26.Ra3 Qa7 27.Ra2 b4 28.Rf4 Qc5 29.Bd2 b3 30.Raxa4 b2 31.Ra8+ Bf8 32.Rf1 Qc2 33.Bb4 Kg7 34.Rb8 b1=Q 35.Bc3+ Qxc3 36.Rbxb1 Qxe3+ 37.Kh1 Be7 38.Rbe1 Qa7 39.Ra1 Qc5 40.Rab1 Bf6 41.Rb7 Qc3 42.Rb8 Qe3 43.Rb7 Qd4 44.Rd7 Qe5
1.0 minute analysis by Stockfish 8 v270317