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|Nov-10-07|| ||a q maclanahan: i discarded the solution because of ...Nc2. i give myself very little time to solve puzzles. ah well...|
as to the speculative question of calculation versus intuition, not being a GM i can't know. but having taken some lessons from such i'll repeat what i heard.
some GMs calculate as many lines as possible. these often also specialize in getting into time trouble. other GMs calculate only the forced lines and evaluate the result based on positional or intuitive consideration.
despite Reti having said that he didn't calculate, it is likely he calculated forced lines.
last comment: playing blindfold is not an ability limited to GMs. when i was taking lessons (as a C player) i was surprised that my teacher required me to start playing informal blindfold games. that and other exercises helped lift my performance about two classes.
|Nov-10-07|| ||znprdx: Well when this position appeared my first question was can Black still castle? (BTW <CG> this should be indicated). I also had a feeling it was going to be one of those OMG-if-I- don't-get-this-I'm-giving-up-Chess days. 20.c4 fails miserably 20.Qe5 has some interesting possibilities, but nothing absolute. Then I reasoned don't tell me it is not really Saturday - it is Wednesday(or maybe even Monday)- why not 20.Qxe6+ for all the gold sovereigns:) OK so I got that far why didn't I consider 20.Bxe6. Gee, maybe because I couldn't >see< 19 ply Nx[N]e1? Shame on any of us for not having missed that -duh, it is unlikely Miles himself did - but I love it when a strong grandmaster plays like this against a legend and pulls it off - too bad no one plays like this today. What about a bit of objectivity here – surely 20....Bx[N]f4 allows for reasonable drawing chances? Also at least 21...Qx[B]f7. So what if 22.Qb3+ winning the knight at c2 after ...Kg8 White’s knight is hanging. Now if 23.Nx[B] Bx[B]f1 (forced) it still isn’t clear - although it won't be easy for Black.|
|Nov-10-07|| ||foursteps: I did not see any analysis for 20. Bxf6 Bxf4 21. Bxf7+ Kxf7 22. Qxf4 Qxf4 23. Bxf4 Bxf4|
Is this line obviously stupid or am I missing something?
|Nov-10-07|| ||kevin86: There certainly were a lot of pins and counterpins in this one! I guess that's what made it a four star puzzle.|
|Nov-10-07|| ||ConstantImprovement: e6 is a focal point and part of the e-file, guarding the king.|
I. 20. ♘e6:? ♗e3: (Other answers don't work: 20. ... e6:? 21. ♕e6:+ ♕e6: 22. ♖e6:+ ♔d7 [♔f7 or ♔f8 are bad] 23. ♖h6: ♖h8 24. ♗e6:+ ♔c7 25. ♗f4:, and White is three pawns up; 20. ... ♔d7? ♕h6:) 21. ♖e3: e6: 22. ♖e6:+ ♕e6: 23. ♗e6:, and White is rook down
II. Thanks to the game collections being displayed below the commentary box I unwillingly saw the starting move ♗e6:. Let us examine it:
20. ♗e6: ♗f4: (20. ... e6:? is bad again, 21. ♕e6:+ ♕e6: 22. ♖e6:+ ♔d7 23. ♖h6: ♖h8 24. ♖h5:, and White is a piece and two pawns up; 20. ... 20. ... ♕f4:? 21. ♗f7:++, and against any move 22. ♕e7+ and 23. ♗f4:)
1. 21. ♕f4: ♕f4: 22. ♗f4: e6: 23. ♖e6:+ ♔d7 is not even enough for a draw for White.
2. Perhaps 21. ♗f7:++
a. ♔f7: 22. ♕b3+ and then 23. ♗f4: Δ of 23. ... ♕f4: 24. ♕e6 with a strong attack.
b. ♔f8 refutes this. ♘ow the queen and the bishop are under attack and White has already given a piece.
|Nov-10-07|| ||ConstantImprovement: Continuation:
3. 21. ♕b3 recycles the idea of 2.a, clearing the way for the rook. The threat is now ♗f7:++, and the bishop is defended, attacking itself the h5-bishop and the g8-rook.
a. ♔f8 22. ♗f4: ♕f4: 23. ♕b5:+ ♔g7 and perhaps 24. ♕b7:, with attacking chances.
b. ♔d8 22. ♗f4: ♕f4: 23. ♗f7: ♗f7: 24. ♕f7: ♖f8 25. ♕b7:, attacking the a8-rook and the b5-knight, winning
c. ♘d5 22. ♗d5:+
d. e6: 22. ♖e6:+ ♕e6: 23. ♕e6:+, winning
e. ♖f8 22. ♗f4: ♕f4: 23. ♗f7:++ ♔e8 24. ♗h5:
So the winning line might be 20. ♗e6: ♗f4: 21. ♕b3 and various winning variations.
|Nov-10-07|| ||JG27Pyth: <Of course, intuition is not conjecture; it's based on talent, experience, vast memory, etc. I believe it is this ability, advanced intuition or insight, rather than the calculation of moves, that separates the GMs from weaker players.>|
Memory. Memory. Memory... Many GMs remember whole games they played years ago better than I remember the position I played 3 minutes ago. Imagine how one might play if one rarely or never repeated mistakes, if one recalled a position seen only once before, the move played, and how it worked out. I think the memory of the "average" GM, when compared to the ordinarily 'bright' individual, is quite freakish.
Of course the creativity/wizardry typified by the best of Alekhine or Tal involves more than memory...but I believe a powerful memory is the foundation of chess 'talent.'
|Nov-10-07|| ||xrt999: Here is the losing move for black, 27...Qd5.
Black should have played 27...Nxg2 instead.
|Nov-10-07|| ||Confuse: Perhaps some people here have misunderstood me... I'm actually not siding with the idea that GMs can only see either one way or another... Rather I'm saying that either is a possibility, and since we can't actually look into a GM's mind... (because how honest can a person be when their ego is concerned?)
all that matters ends up being what you want to believe. Thats what I was trying to say. I hope this makes it more clear that instead of actually taking a position on whether GMs can or cannot read that far ahead, I'm saying only your opinion matters (With a hint of skepticism with the ": P" face) : )|
|Nov-10-07|| ||MJW 72: Bxe6 is the only move to consider for puzzles. Blacks position is so strong that only a sac will work and Bxe6 is the only plausible one.|
But I would not play that move in a real game.
|Nov-10-07|| ||mikhs: RE: dzechiel's "... 20 Bxe6 Bxf4 21 Qxf4 Qxf4 22 Bxf5+ Kd8 23 Bxf4 with two pawn advantage..."|
What about 23...Nc2 ? Wins back one of the pawns and wins an exchange.
If this was already answered above then I appologize for not having the patience to read through 2 pages of postings.
|Nov-10-07|| ||a q maclanahan: <confuse> i think it is a continuum. some extreme GM players prefer to calculate. some extreme GM players prefer to intuit. but most GMs lie in between, preferring calculation or intuition to varying degrees and game situations. i think that we agree that saying it has to be one way or the other is unreasonable.|
|Nov-10-07|| ||whitebeach: <xrt999: Here is the losing move for black, 27...Qd5. |
Black should have played 27...Nxg2 instead.>
On 27 . . . Nxg2 28. Ne4+ Ke6 29. Qh7 wins.
|Nov-10-07|| ||Jimfromprovidence: <miks> <RE: dzechiel's "... 20 Bxe6 Bxf4 21 Qxf4 Qxf4 22 Bxf5+ Kd8 23 Bxf4 with two pawn advantage..."
What about 23...Nc2 ? Wins back one of the pawns and wins an exchange.>|
24 Bxc2 stops it.
|Nov-10-07|| ||znprdx: correction(s)and restatement of query: What about a bit of objectivity here – surely 20....Bx[N]f4 allows for reasonable drawing chances? Also at least 21...Kx[B]f7. also <foursteps: I did not see any analysis for 20. Bxe6 Bxf4>|
|Nov-10-07|| ||karibola: My chess simulator chose 27 Nxg2, which was offering a queen trade. Can somebody explain how white could win after this, I'm a bit confused.|
|Nov-10-07|| ||Jimfromprovidence: <xrt999: Here is the losing move for black, 27...Qd5.
Black should have played 27...Nxg2 instead.> |
<whitebeach On 27 . . . Nxg2 28. Ne4+ Ke6 29. Qh7 wins.>
<karibola My chess simulator chose 27 Nxg2, which was offering a queen trade. Can somebody explain how white could win after this, I'm a bit confused.>
I’ll try to respond to those inquiries concerning the possible move 27… Nxg2
First of all, I don’t think what <whiteshark> says <On 27 . . . Nxg2 28. Ne4+ Ke6 29. Qh7 wins> is correct because black can play 28… Kg7 instead. If 28 ... Kg7 then the queen exchange 29 Nxd6 Nxh4 lets black back into the game. In fact black is slightly up the exchange at this point.
click for larger view
My thinking is simple, if black plays 27... Ng2 then white plays 28 Kxg2. If black plays 28… Qd5+ then 29 Kh2 lets white escape and keeps the two pawn advantage.
I could not find anything winning for black with this particular continuation.
|Nov-10-07|| ||willyfly: Material is dead even. On Saturdays and Sundays I'm usually satisfied if I get the general idea.|
20 ♗xe6 gives up a ♗ for a ♙ and a potential and it looks to me as though Black has to retake the ♗
20...fxe6 21 ♕xe6+ wins another ♙ and forces the exchange of ♕s
21...♕xe6 22 ♖xe6+ the ♔ must move
22...♔any 23 ♖xh6 wins back the ♗ and threatens to capture the h4♗ next move
That, I think, is the general idea. Now, to look and see.
I was right for one-half move anyway
|Nov-10-07|| ||willyfly: I saw 20...♘xc2 but failed to see that after 20...♘xc2 the discovered check of the ♔ by the ♕ was insufficient in other ♗ moves besides 21 ♗xf5+ which takes another ♙ and saves (for the time being) the ♕ and then White is only down a ♙ with good potential.|
|Nov-10-07|| ||al wazir: <Confuse>: Well, I guess I was asking if Miles had published any analysis or given an interview that would have shed light on his thinking in this game -- though, as you suggest, he might not have been candid about it.|
|Nov-10-07|| ||karibola: okay, so I thought a little more about 27...Nxg2, thanks for the reply Jimfromprovidence. However, I'm thinking that if white plays 28 Kxg2 that black should reply with f4. By playing f4, black stops whites protection of the knight on g5 and could soon gobble it up. The knight can't move due to the rook pinning it. It seems that after this black could take the lead in the game. Am I wrong here, and if not, then 28 Kxg2 was obviously a mistake. What should white play on 28...did black actually stand a chance?|
|Nov-10-07|| ||Marmot PFL: After a couple false starts I realised that white could play 20.Bxe6 and allow the Nxc2 fork. (20...fe6 loses to the simple 21.Qxe6+ Qxe6 22.Rxe6+ and Nxh5). After 20...Nxc2 21.Bxf7+ Kxf7 22.Qb3+ is easy for white, but black can play better with 21...Kf8 and the win is harder to see. 33.Ne6+ Kxf7 34.Qxh6 Nxe1 35.Ng5+ and Qxh5 with threats of Qf7+ and Kxe1 seems to be very strong but this is beyond what I can see from the starting point. This does not bother me much as on Saturday I usually just try to see the essential idea and avoid major oversights rather than attempt to outcalculate a strong GM.|
|Nov-11-07|| ||Jimfromprovidence: <karibola> <okay, so I thought a little more about 27...Nxg2, thanks for the reply Jimfromprovidence. However, I'm thinking that if white plays 28 Kxg2 that black should reply with f4. By playing f4, black stops whites protection of the knight on g5 and could soon gobble it up. The knight can't move due to the rook pinning it. It seems that after this black could take the lead in the game. Am I wrong here, and if not, then 28 Kxg2 was obviously a mistake. What should white play on 28...did black actually stand a chance?>|
If black plays 28… f4 then 29 Bxf4 wins a pawn for white and also attacks black’s queen. If black then plays 29… Qd5+, white follows with 30 Kh2. If black follows up with 30…Rag8 then 31 Rg1 stops that threat.
I tried but could not find a way black wins with 27… Nxg2.
|Nov-11-07|| ||karibola: yeah, I think I had acidentally misplaced white's queen to not protecting f4.|
|Nov-11-07|| ||whitebeach: <Jimfromprovidence> Your analysis of 27 . . . Ng2 seems correct. I overlooked that after 28. Ne4+ black can play Kg7 instead of Ke6. BTW, I'm whitebeach, not whiteshark, who's another poster entirely.|
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