< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|Oct-28-12|| ||King Sacrificer: What about 30... Kf6 instead of Rg8?|
|Oct-28-12|| ||morfishine: No success with my first two candidates: 27.Bh6+ & 27.Qd2|
(1) <27.Bh6+ Kxh6 28.Qd2+ Kg7 29.Qg5+ Kh8> and I don't
see a good continuation for White
(2) <27.Qd2 f4 (27...Bxe5 28.Qh6+ looks too dangerious for Black)
28.Nxg4> (White is up 2-pawns, but as long as Black can maintain
the "blockade" on <f4>, he's still alive) Black to move <28>:
click for larger view
A tense position centered on <f4>: Black can't play <fxg3> due to
<Qh6+>; meanwhile, White can't very well play <gxf4> due to
<Bxf4> or <Nxf4> or even <Rxf4>
Can Black defend from this position? Or is it even defensible? I'm
going to check the game continuation since, frankly, I feel like I
missed something (as far as "insane' goes) and am unable to tell
if this is a spoiler, or if <27...f4> is really sound, though it looks it
Wow, Black took the bait and played <27...Bxe5> and lost; this
leaves me wondering if <27...f4> improves
|Oct-28-12|| ||morfishine: <Once> We had the same idea with <27...f4>. I feel much better that you ran it thru FRITZ. I am becoming more interested in this position, primarily to search for the best continuation for Black (move 28). There's a lot of different defensive ideas to consider for Black, but no doubt, accuracy has to be perfect... |
For example, chasing the Knight with <28...h5> may not be so good if White intends to re-route the Knight anyways via <f2> - <e4>, which looks to be an ideal post the White Knight
<28...Qd7> or <28...Qf7> covering the hole at <e6>, must be considered
A quiet, yet possibly strong move is <28...c4>. While no doubt anti-positional, this prevents Whites's <c4> chasing the Black Knight when it might no be ready to move just yet
<28...Bc6> looks playable with the idea of <29...Be8> shoring up the K-side
I'll have to sort thru these to see if Black can organize an effective defense and possibly generate counterplay
|Oct-28-12|| ||SimonWebbsTiger: for what it's worth, Ivanchuk gave 29...Kf6! unclear, if white plays for the point and not perpetual, in his notes in Informator 67/442|
|Oct-28-12|| ||David2009: Ivanchuk vs I Sokolov, 1996 White 26?|
White has a positional sacrifice: 26.fxg4 Bxe5 (if fxg4 27.Qd2 etc) 27.gxf5 with attacking chances. If I played this OTB I would expect to beat a weaker player,
but lose to a stronger player: I would play it in any case because I can see no clear positive alternative (26.Qd2 is unclear with the f file closed). Time to
click for larger view
linked to Crafty End Game Trainer:
Against 26.fxg4 Bxe5 27.fxg4 the aggressive robot plays 27...b4 28.Qd2 Kh8 29.Qh6 Bg7 and the c3 Pawn falls: I cannot play 29.cxb4 first because of 29...Bd4+. Against the game line the calm robot simply hands back the extra material: 29.Qd2 Bxe4 30.Qh6+ Kg8! 31.Qe6+ Qf7 32.Qxe5 h5 and now 33.Bb3 is met by gxf3, whilst 33.f4 is met by c4. I leave it to others to explore these variations further: without the help of Herr Fritz beating the EGT is beyond my pay grade.
|Oct-28-12|| ||vinidivici: <David>
What is OTB?
|Oct-28-12|| ||Once: OTB = "over the board", as in playing the game for real with a human opponent.|
|Oct-28-12|| ||chrisowen: Every it ok in white slide his queen over tickle d2 in a daze, lot of entry it points in h6 and g5 i expect black plays f4 to hold in, |
curtain rail preventing immediate invasion on kingside then e5 in g4
whites too pawns up as far as i see if instead bxe5 white has plus
in together 28.qh6+ in get going have kg8 allowing ground for queen
slide check e6 and capture e5 up ride a pawn and bc1 is a lion
rampaging king dark squares so fantails 28.Kf7 29.Qxh7+ now ledge
bg7 or in gamble ko kinge6 white will regain e5 suffer f6 tile h5 as
an option again dark squares are weak dont see any further king
exposed queen on the march in stomp g7 allows chopper h6 backls
pices are uncoordinated so white in purse collect pawns three in for
sacrificed knight i estimate a lively finish with bishop rook it
queen in f5 a stb3 and rook invasion I like at locomote qd2 believe
the hard part is spotting what to do after d2 f4 in is hokum right?
|Oct-28-12|| ||vinidivici: <Once> i see.
i thought before its "off-track betting", made everything confusing.
|Oct-28-12|| ||Patriot: I've already spent 27 minutes on this--something practically impossible during a game. 27.Bh6+ looks interesting:|
27...Kxh6 (the only move to consider) 28.Qd2+ Kg7; 28...Kh5 29.fxg4+ fxg4 30.Bxg4#; 28...f4 29.Nxg4+ Kg7 and what? 30.Qg2? (28...f4 may be a refute). Maybe 30.Re6 in that line.
29.Qg5+ Kh8 30.Ng6+ (I don't see anything else) hxg6 31.Re6 looks pretty strong.
This is all unclear.
|Oct-28-12|| ||vinidivici: Actually, 27 minutes is quite common in the competitive match for one move.|
With 2 hours in the first 40 moves + 2 hours for the rest of the moves, a player has to be a clever one to use the time prudently. Of course not all of moves take 20 minutes or more each time. But make some quick move in here and there will save the time for the complex one.
|Oct-28-12|| ||Patriot: Ok, so the "simple" threat of 27.Qd2. Apparently I should be looking for easier ways to win!|
|Oct-28-12|| ||Jimfromprovidence: <SimonWebbsTiger> <for what it's worth, Ivanchuk gave 29...Kf6! unclear, if white plays for the point and not perpetual, in his notes in Informator 67/442>.|
Ok, I'll bite and go with this angle.
click for larger view
I'll try 30 Qh5 next.
click for larger view
The concept is to not let the king get back to f7, which 30 Qh4+ allows. The threat is 31 Bg5+, forcing the king to the e file where 32 f4 pins the bishop.
That's my two cents worth, which means I have no idea how it all works out.
|Oct-28-12|| ||Marmot PFL: 27 Qd2 Bxe5 28 Qh6+ Kf7 (Kg8 29 Qe6+) 29 Qxh7+ is interesting, but I didn't find a win after 29...Kf6. I am looking at Jim's idea now on the diagram, which looks promising and I doubt black can defend given his bad king position.|
My impression is that black got carried away with attacking and became careless. 23...g4 is probably based on a miscalculation and instead 23...f4 seems much more thematic for the Marshall attack.
|Oct-28-12|| ||BOSTER: It's easy to see the pos. with Qg5 and Kh8 after 27.Bh6+ Kxh6 28.Qd2+ Kg7 28.Qg5+ Kh8.
But it looks like this line is the road nowhere.
But I don't think that variation which began with slow move 27.Qd2 is really
Black is not forced to play 27...Bxe5, and he has at least couple moves to continue the fighting. Even after 27...Bxe5 28.Qh6+ Kg8 he could return the piece.
I don't think that GM, who sacr. a piece, all time counts (this is how said <vinidici>) how much material he has for this.
In many great combos player ,who sacr. the piece (even the queen) has no material compensation, but has the winning position.
I guess , Sokolov, who,b.t.w., won 2012 World Open in Phili, should precisely see the outcome from playing 27...Bxe5, when his king was cut from queen's side by rook on e1 to escape. Maybe his push g7-g5-g4 was too agressive.
|Oct-28-12|| ||James D Flynn: White is pawn up and Blacks K-side pawn advance has exposed his K. White has no need to look for madcap complications based on Bh6+. His N on e5 is attacked, he can defend it by d4 or f4 but the latter would closed the diagonal to h6 whereas the former provides a diagonal for Whites white square B toward the K. Candidates 27.Qd2, d4, and since this is a Sunday puzzle, reluctantly, Bh6+.
27.Qd2 f4(if Bxe5 28.Qh6+ Kg8 29.Qe6+ Qf7 30.Qxe5 regains the piece 28.Nxg4 fxg3(looks suicidal) 29.Qh6+ Kg8 30 Qe6+ Kh8 31.Bh6 gxh2+ 32.Kh1 Rg8 32.Ne5 Bxe5 33.Rxe5 Rd8(if Qd8 to guard the f6 square if White plays 34.Rxd5 ) 34.Rxd5 Bxd5 35.Qe5+ Rg7 36.Qxg7#)34.Qe8+ Rxe8 35.Rxe8#
27.d4 cxd4 and White cannot retake with the Q because of Bc5 or the pawn because Qxc1.
27.Bh6+ Kxh6 28.Qd2+ f4 29.Nxg4+ and I donít see any convincing follow up but I am sure that this must be the game continuation so letís see.|
|Oct-28-12|| ||DarthStapler: I got the first 4 moves|
|Oct-28-12|| ||Marmot PFL: 22...g5 and 23...g4 is kind of risky, but all black's moves seemed logical until 25...Kg7. I don't see the point of this at all.|
|Oct-28-12|| ||agb2002: White is a pawn ahead.
Black threatens 27... Bxe5.
I have considered 27.Nxg4, 27.Bh6+ and what I'd play 27.Qd2 but haven't found anything decisive. For example, 27.Qd2 Bxe5 28.Qh6+ Kg8 29.Qe6+ Qf7 30.Qxe5 f4 31.fxg4 fxg3 32.Qxg3 and White is two pawns ahead but Black might have some counter chances. I don't know.
|Oct-28-12|| ||vinidivici: <Boster>
<I don't think that GM, who sacr. a piece, all time counts (this is how said <vinidici>) how much material he has for this.>
Of course not every time. But counting materials gain is in GM repertoire.
<In many great combos player ,who sacr. the piece (even the queen) has no material compensation, but has the winning position.>
BIG MISTAKES. They are taught to count all possibilities. Let alone queen, u dont want to waste in vain the queen except with a clear positional advantage.
And most of the times, the complex position have NO clear positional advantages, so counting materials coming to handy and also safety of the pieces. If they look the move looks promising, they will calculate deeply, everything, and they will take a chance with that move.
So if you said
<I don't think that GM, who sacr. a piece, all time counts (this is how said <vinidici>) how much material he has for this>
Maybe that because you never get the formal PROFOUND study from the chess teachers as a GM does.
|Oct-28-12|| ||Jafar219: Unbelievable attack by Ivanchuk.|
|Oct-28-12|| ||BOSTER: I don't want to argue with you <vinidivici> about <formal PROFOUND study from the chess teachers as a GM does>. How I understand you are not a Garry son.|
In many combo player,who sacr. the piece, has no material compensation ,but has the winning position.
<vinidivici>. <BIG MISTAKES> . This is what you think.
|Oct-28-12|| ||francis2012: h6+? and d2! are my two candidates move in this puzzle.|
|Oct-28-12|| ||vinidivici: <boster>
lol...garry's son isnt a GM. dont u know it...D'OH
I can see your POV. i understand you.
Its a lack comprehension that makes you a narrow-minded person.
You said this
<In many combo player,who sacr. the piece, has no material compensation ,but has the WINNING position.>
Its true. Its a WINNING position. So who will think about the material compensation anymore.
What we are talking about is the complex positions that need a deep calculation just like the puzzle above. Not a winning position that just needs 1,2, or 3 combinations. No my friend, we are talking the complex combinations that have many branches and need a profound analysis.
But i understand you. I saw some of your posts. No worries.
|Oct-28-12|| ||SimonWebbsTiger: @<Jimfromprovidence> and <Marmot>|
Interestingly, Chucky didn't mention 29...Kf6 30. Qh5 at all.
As for 23...f4, he gave the short line: 24. Ne5 Qg7 25. d4 cd4 26. cd4
In his opinion, 22...g5 was dubious, suggesting 22...f4 and giving some variations which lead only to a small edge. All of this could be academic though because Almasi-Khalifman, Ubeda 1997 (Informator 69/332) saw 19...Nf4 20. Ne4 Nh3 21. Kh1 and now El Khalif and Nesis analysed 21...Nxf2 22. Qxf2 f5 23. Qg2 c4 in black's favour.
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·