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|Jan-07-12|| ||paulalbert: I didn't think this was quite as difficult as normal for Saturday. I was pretty sure right from the go off that Rxh4 followed by Ng4ch was the main idea, and then Qf4 threatening mate. I spent some time, since black starts a Rook down, convincing myself that the desperado defense Qxg4 was not sufficient, but it looked like black should be able to win without too much difficulty. I can't say that I necessarily saw every variation, which is what you need to do to have the courage to play like this in a real game.|
|Jan-07-12|| ||FSR: <paulalbert> I don't think you necessarily have to see every single line. Some sacs, like this one, just "feel" right.|
|Jan-07-12|| ||gofer: Black is a whole rook down, but has a two pawn advantage, two of which are controlling the dark squares around the white king.
The white king is quite exposed and could quickly become even more so. So I think I would open up the position even more and
force white's king out into the open.
<21 ... Rxh4!>
White cannot afford to give up the bishop for nothing as that would move black into a clearly winning position with excellent
squares for his knight on g4 and then e3! Also the LSB can move to either c6 or b5 and cause issues too...
<22 gxh4 Ng4>
So now the king has to make a choice;
23 Kg2 Ne3+ winning the queen
23 Kf3 Bc6+ 24 Ke2 Qe5+ 25 Kd3 Bb5#
23 Ke2 Qe5+ 24 Kf3 Bc6# (Ked3 Bb5#)
23 Ke1 Qf4 24 Qe2 Bb5 25 Qg2 Qe3+
26 Kd1 Nf2+ 27 Qxf2 Qxf2 28 Be2 Qxe2+ 29 Kc1 d3 30 Ra2 d2+ 31 Kb1 Qe1+ 32 Rxe1 dxe1=R#
26 Be2 Qd2+ 27 Kf1 Ne3+ 28 Kg1 Nxg2 29 Kxg2 Qxe2+ 30 Kg3 Qe3+ 31 Kg2 Bc6+ 32 Kf2 Qf3+ 33 Ke1 Bb5 mating
<23 Kg1 Qf4>
<24 Qe1 ...>
Now for the tricky bit; choosing between Bc6 trying to win the rook and d3 winning everything...
25 Bh3 Qd4+ 26 Kg2 Bc6+ (Kf1 d2! 27 Qg3 Bb5#) 27 Kg3 Qd6+ mating (Kf1 d2! 28 Qg3 Bb5#)
25 cxd3 Qd4+ 26 Kg2 Bc6+ 27 Kh3 Nf2+ 28 Kg3 f4#
<25 Bxd3 Qd4+>
25 Kg2 Bc6+ 26 Kf1 (Kh3 Nf2+ 27 Kg3 f4#)
<26 Kf1 Ne3+>
<27 Ke2 f4!>
Suddenly Be3 looks like a big pawn doing very little, Ne3 looks like a god and Bd7 looks like winged mercury
about to bear down on white in any direction!
28 Qg1 Bg4+ 29 Ke1 Nxc2+ mating!
28 Qf2 Bg4+ 29 Ke1 Qe5! 30 Qg1 Nc2+ 31 Kf1 Bh3+! 32 Qg2 Bxg2 33 Kxg2 Qd5+ winning easily!
<28 Rg1 Bc6>
<29 Rg8+ Kc7>
<30 Qg1 f3+>
<31 Ke1 Nxc2+> winning
|Jan-07-12|| ||kevin86: Black gives up both rooks-then jumps in the white king's lap like a mad dog.|
The black square control by black leads to a quick mate.
|Jan-07-12|| ||Pawn and Two: Ivkov did a lot of the hard lifting for us, with his brilliant and winning 19...Rxe5!!.|
In the puzzle position, Black being material down, and the White King having the welcome mat out, 21...Rxh4 was very quickly the move I concentrated on.
The continuations I found were all winning, but it took me a litte longer to find 23...d3!, in the line 21...Rxh4! 22.gxh4 Ng4+ 23.Kg1 d3!.
Those early Capablanca Memorial tournaments were really something! This one in 1963 was won by Korchnoi - 16 1/2 points, Geller, Pachman, & Tal - 16 points, and Barcza and Ivkov with 15 1/2 points.
Our puzzle position game was played in the 3rd round. The loser, Cobo Arteage, was the highest scoring Cuban in the tournament with a score of +2 -7 = 12, for a total of 8 points, or less than half of Korchnoi's total.
|Jan-07-12|| ||Patriot: Black is down a rook for 2 pawns so black will have to play very dynamically to compensate for such a material difference. 21...Rxh4 is really the only move I wanted to play, with the idea of 22.gxh4 Ng4+ and bringing the queen in closer (like f4). 23.Kg1 seemed to be the strongest defense and is mainly the move I focused on. 23...Qf4 24.Qe1 -- I didn't care for 24.Qe2 Bb5. There I wasn't sure how to continue and noticed <FSR> mentioned 23...d3 (not 23...Qf4), which didn't even cross my mind. I thought about 23...Bc6 (threatening 24...Bxh1 25.Kxh1 Nf2+ winning the queen) but thought white isn't forced into that line.|
I would say that black had to play 21...Rxh4, win or lose. The real decision was in whether to play 19...Rxe5 or not!
|Jan-07-12|| ||JohnBoy: How does black press it if white plays 21.Qe2?|
|Jan-07-12|| ||BadKnight: I spent about 10 min on this checking d3. It appeared it does not work, so gave up. I was hoping to check Rxh4, but i did not believe i could not make it work. time, more time...|
|Jan-07-12|| ||Jimfromprovidence: No one's suggested that white not take the rook after 21...Rxh4 but I would take a look at 22 Be2 here.|
click for larger view
This move protects against the knight check at g4, keeps the rook en prise and also attacks black's d pawn.
On the other hand, 22...Re4, below looks like a strong response with the threat of ...f4.
click for larger view
La situación está muy complicada.
|Jan-07-12|| ||chrisowen: 19...Rxe5 that take some balls I gah a it is kind roper doper d1 gets us too languid puzzle wain it rookxh4 ive das boot league cooked black rise in rubber it all bar done gxh4 ng4 in good game it is gold hinder buddical alibi g1 king d3! Oor e1 my thin queen entrance Confucius say |
"Ignorance is the night of mind, but night without moon and star" black crows in full effect! Excellent adventure.
Does anyone castle short in Winawer?
|Jan-07-12|| ||chrisowen: In no time like future bath ta you rip up middle then expose dark squares it alive in germ it re e5! One for connoisseurs tragic implement in old crock, chuck out your chintz.|
This is my game in Fritz from a while back:
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 Ne7 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 c5 7.Nf3 Qa5 8.Bd2 Nbc6 9.Be2 c4 10.a4 0-0 11.0-0 b6 (and I went on to win).
|Jan-07-12|| ||Patriot: <<LoveThatJoker>: Whoa! No one has suggested 21...d3! at all.
I'm seeing this as winning for Black.
Does anyone have an engine they can fire up so as to prove my theory correct or incorrect?>
Here's what Houdini says after 25 minutes and 23 ply:
1. (-5.92): 3...Rxh4 4.Be2 Re4 5.Rf1 d3 6.cxd3 Ba4 7.dxe4 Qb6+ 8.Kg2 Bxd1 9.Rfxd1 fxe4 10.Rdb1 Qc6 11.Ra2 Nc4 12.Re1 Ne3+ 13.Kh1 c2 14.Raa1 f5 15.Rec1 Qc3 16.Re1 Qa5 17.Kg1 Qc5 18.Rac1 Qxa3 19.h4
2. (-0.90): 3...d3 4.Bxd3 Rg8 5.h3 Qc5+ 6.Kf1 Bc6 7.Bxf5+ Kb8 8.g4 Bxh1 9.Bf2 Qc6 10.Qd4 Bg2+ 11.Ke2 Qa6+ 12.Bd3 Nxd3 13.cxd3 Bxh3 14.Kd1 Bxg4+ 15.Kc2 Be6 16.a4 Rc8 17.Ra3 b6 18.Bg3+ Kb7
It starts on move 3 because I put the position in at move 19 and forwarded to the game position.
|Jan-07-12|| ||vanytchouck: my two guesses :
21. ...d3 to open a diagonal for the queen;
and 21...Rxh4 because it's the typical move for a puzzle and it's easy to see 22...Ng4 + coming after.
But i failed to see 23...Qf4 because i was too focused on 23...Bc6 (even if i knew that white could allow the take of the Rh1, but still white look stuck).
|Jan-07-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <Patriot> Thank you very much for the doing that, man!|
So 21...d3 with the ultimate kind of best play (Houdini play), is a winning play.
I feel that I can give myself at least a 50% mark for today. Granted 21...Rxh4 was the crusher for today, but no one can deny that 21...d3 is Black's best alternative. And thanks to Patriot and Houdini, we have even more confirmation here.
|Jan-07-12|| ||tud: Rh4 is efficient. How about 21...d3 22Qe1 ? Any machines?|
|Jan-07-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <Patriot> Man, could you do me a favour?|
There is this game, A Kveinys vs Kramnik, 1992
Could you kindly tell me what Houdini says about how Black should proceed in case of 28. Ke3?
Thank you, Patriot!
|Jan-07-12|| ||James D Flynn: There are several candidates my first was d3 to open the b6-f1 diagonal for the Q. It looks quite promising e.g 22.Bxd3 Qc5ch 23.Ke2 loses to Rxh4 24.g3xh4 f4 25.Ke1 Bg4 but 23.Ke1 and I didnt see an immediate win. My next was f4 intending to take on g3 and sac the exchange to bring my Q in at g3 after thew Ng4ch. But why sac anything? Re4 looks very strong e.g 22.Bd3 Ng4ch 23.Kf3 Re3ch 24.Kg2 Bc6ch 25.Kh3 Nf2# so I settled on this and checked the game with the thought that maybe 22.h3 may hold.|
|Jan-07-12|| ||Patriot: <LoveThatJoker> Sure, no problem. First I tried to analyze it a little myself and thought if 1.Ke3, 1...Rxd1 2.Rxd1 Qxd1 3.cxb3 "might" be equal and started looking at 1...Bc5+ and thought 2.Bd4 may be the best reply. Anyway, here's what Houdini said at 20 ply:|
1. (-1.11): 1.Ke3 Rxd1 2.Rxd1 Qxd1 3.cxb3 Bc5+ 4.Kf4 Bd6+ 5.e5 fxe5+ 6.Bxe5 Qc1+ 7.Kf3 Qc6+ 8.Ke3 Qc5+ 9.Ke4 Qc2+ 10.Kd5 Bxe5 11.Qxe5 Qxg2+ 12.Kc4 Qf1+ 13.Kd4 Qf6 14.Qxf6 gxf6 15.Kd5 Kf7 16.b4 h5
2. (-2.68): 1.Qd3 Rxd3+ 2.Kxd3 Qa4 3.cxb3 Qxb3 4.Rhe1 Bc5 5.Rc1 Bf2 6.Rf1 Qb5+ 7.Kc2 Bxh4 8.Rh1 Qe2+ 9.Kb1 Qxe4+ 10.Rc2 b5 11.Rd1 Bg3 12.Rd7 Qe6 13.Rd3 Bd6 14.Ba5 Be5 15.Bc7 Qf5 16.Rd8+ Kf7
So Ke3 is best.
|Jan-07-12|| ||morfishine: Good Work <everybody>! Just love these unbalanced positions. I went with <21...d3> but had left off white's pawn at <h2>. Why do I keep doing that? |
After labeling myself a bonehead, I re-set the position, and trying to be as objective as possible, still select <21...d3> to activate Black's Queen via <c5>, so <LovethatJoker>, I'm with you here.
Really good work today. Very nice job!
|Jan-07-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <Patriot> Seriously, man. THANK YOU! I'm going to look at this line right now. I can't begin to tell you how much this line troubled me over the past couple of days. And it is good to see that Houdini picked the 4. Bd6+ line. |
<morfishine> Hi morfishine! 21...d3 is a great move. Yes, inferior to 21...Rxh4, but White has to proceed carefully, for if he gets over confident he just might have to lose his R, his Q or just downright get mated somewhere. :) How are things, morfishine?
|Jan-07-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <Patriot> I played through it. It leads to a won K+P endgame for Black with some wicked cool manoeuvres by the Black Q so as to win a pawn and then trade Q's off. Pure Capablanca! Pure Kramnik!|
Thanks again, man!
|Jan-07-12|| ||bischopper: today Ican not to find a move to win and have 20 minutes on board!!|
|Jan-07-12|| ||profK: Great double rook sac by the first world junior champion !!|
|Jan-07-12|| ||Fervac: <Jimfromprovidence> I think 21... Rxh4 22. Be2 - Re4 is a little pasive. In my humble opinion, I prefer to play 22... d3 is more agressive. I analyzed the position and considered it was better.|
|Jan-07-12|| ||TheBish: E Cobo Arteaga vs Ivkov, 1963|
Black to play (21...?) "Very Difficult", Black is down a rook for two pawns.
It seems pretty obvious that Black's knight belongs on g4, with his queen needing to enter the scene. How best to vacate g4 for the knight?
21...Rxh4!! 22. gxh4
Otherwise Black retains material equality with a strong attack.
22...Ng4+ and now:
A) 23. Kg1
Or 23. Kg2 Bc6+ 24. Kg1 Bxh1 25. Kxh1 Nf2+, winning the queen.
23...d3! 24. Qxd3 Qc5+ 25. Kg2 Bc6+ 26. Kg3 Qe5+ 27. Kh3 Nf2#.
B) 23. Ke1 Qf4 24. Qe2 Bb5! 25. Qg2 Qe3+ and Black will win White's queen after 26. Kd1 Nf2+ or 26. Be2 Qd2+ 27. Kf1 Ne3+.
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